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| Dear Leo, If I quote the bible I can say it reads as follows or perhaps Jesus said this or the following is explained... So if you read the bible and then explain it as what you read was what Jesus said.... There is an understood subject that you believe this also.... Ok this could be a stretch of the imagination, but I am back to manifestation and presentation of published materials verses a persons belief system and the tense it is presented in.... This is why I asked you certain questions on your faith earlier.... But what you believe is a free will question for you to answer, and we discussed it and left the subject after you were finished explaining what you had to express I just wanted to point out the way we discuss things and concept, there is possessive and neutral ownership of the subject, and even a disconnect way of discussion, through third person context But I can not argue the point of someone doing what they feel as right to do, but when someone say not interested, and another says listen longer and closer.... There are so many more who could benefit for religion if people did not look to their explanation power to get people into church.... The funniest Pentecostal Church event I was involved in was, where they used what they called a bible study night and used the entire time to discuss what everyone in other religions were doing wrong and then said we need to more people up in here.... Yeah.... I was told to keep the spirit under check and get out quietly As far Mark 16: 9-20 who knows the purpose or intent, but in Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.... So this tells me that I am supposed to feel when it is right to share and not to share the word.... It is not to be an "ok I can sleep better when I get to paradise", knowing it was shared and they did not accept it, so absolution is granted and I am no longer responsible in God's eye... The issue of who or if Jesus died while on the cross, will never be decided and proved by the likes of me, so I have see to left any proof behind, or it is not handy.... So this is something to entertain theologians and perhaps a matter of hope and faith.... So does it matter who is right when we discussing faith in the unseen. People need hope and if you were proved right today on this fact, you would have just been responsible for for killing Christmas... I don't know about you but I do not want to be called the Grinch in the hereafter LOL The truth of the spiritual realm is probably closer to the practices of peace and acceptance.... and I feel like I stumbled upon the truth through religon..... This shames me to say it, but it is how I feel. Love and Light |
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| cause - 10/17/2011 9:44 PM
>disa, I understand the attraction to paganism. to be free and excited, living with yourself and feeling no need to explain yourself. It feels good. I find that eventualy it is unfulfiling. many pagans go back to other religion as they become older. I have memories of dancing around a bonfire to the forefront of my mind. I have no real shame in doing this. I have no knowledge of a thou shalt not dance around a fire. in one of Goethe's more famous plays the wizzard and his intended partner rush together on the pire. Goethe's answer for this and the reason they are not dammed is simply 'lieb' (love) cause
Ahh, but none of this is my attraction to paganism. I am not free and excited, living with myself and feeling no need to explain myself. I have not yet, danced around bonfires. On the contrary, as was mentioned before paganism is often an honorable way to live. I am not part of any coven or group. I walk my own path at the moment, but it is a path of honor, accountability, and great responsibility. I have known many atheists and pagans who are much more honorable than some of the Christians I've known. Yet, we can't lump everyone into one group just because they label themselves such and such. My attraction to paganism is respect for the earth, respect for humanity, respect for people to be what they are- exactly what they were born as. On the whole I find pagans much more loving and accepting in general. As for going back to other religion, I didn't come from a religion. I don't have religious doctrine ingrained in my being that I have had to have painfully extracted in order to feel worthy. As an adult, I attended a Church of Christ for one solid year, became baptized, then realized it just wasn't working for me. Some of the teachings, of course made sense, but at it's very core, Christianity is so far from anything I believe that I don't think I could ever go back to a Christian Church. I think I've written about this someplace else before, so won't go into it all again. Just felt the need to comment, because it sort of sounded like your words" no need to explain myself" was one of the preconceptions people have of paganism that they do "just anything" with no thoughts of the consequences of their actions, frolicking and dancing without any responsibility for what they do to themselves or others, and that just isn't the case. At least, not the pagans and witches I know  |
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Location: NE Ohio | Constant reference to the bible, as being the sole source of what is right or wrong, shouldn't be. It's not so accurate. While it's a great spiritual, and most popular "channeled" information on the planet, it's just that, "Channeled information".
Not a single person who wrote the bible witnessed the events spoken directly about. They speak of stories passed along or smoked them some peace pipe and channeled the info after starving for a week. (brain and body deprivation causes hallucinations) THEN to top it off, some of the stories are DREAMED events. OK! I do believe in SOME channeled information, but not all of it... that would be pretty gullible to me.
My gosh, if I wrote my dreams as being prophetic.... and some of them were /are, and have saved lives.... there would be mass hysteria. Because i am just one in our BILLIONS of people who can do this now. We now believe in ourselves way more than we did back in the uneducated and days of total fear from a king.
What I do not like about the bible is: the book portrays God as being judgmental. Do as i say, or it's a sin, or it's eternal darnation... according to WHOM? a different interpretation of another man's writings? BLAH
This doesn't mean i don't think some of the morals are important, or the book is bad, it just means that when we want to talk about religion.... it's not all about Christianity. That is born much later than so many other religions on the planet, and twisted so many times to fit the belief system of yet another man.
What if we step back and realize... WE ARE GOD! Each of us.... so... know in our own hearts what is good, or bad and go with it. Experience everything.... If you love Christianity, stick with it, if you don't... then don't.
I personally have Christianity in my background, as I was raised religious. I grew bigger than the book. I have seen things and experienced things that make some of the wild tales in the bible, not so true. As with any story, everyone brings out of it what they each need. What works for some, doesn't work for others... so lets leave it at that.
I will NEVER convert anyone to my own religion, if I have one, and if I do it's called Jillithism. HA HA HA, it's little bits of this, and little bits of that, and my OWN channeled information from God.
I do not need anyone to believe, lead or follow.... just BE! Be well.... Be happy.
If my god had one thing to share: he she would share "LOVE EVERYTHING!"
Just for record, i do not bash the number 1 selling "Channeled" book on the market called the Bible. I just have higher sources that I trust and believe in. That is me.... and only me.
As far as Wicca, i see and value the part of that religion too, but again, it's a religion. I personally cannot stick to just one. There are great points and bad points to them all....
Be you!
HUGS~
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Location: Bellingham | Disa, I did not intend to express myself including all others expression and experience. I have been to general in speech. I also only have my own experiance and reading to much of "The Golden Bough" which describes many pagan practices in simplified terms.(repetitively and simply and from a distance). Morality needs no religion. I perhaps should have started this thread with 'we might validate your beliefs' That is my intended subject. The worship of wisdom is a facinating(to me). My first statement of this is that worshiping wisdom makes more sense than worshiping the wise, when you consider the divinity of each. this is strangely validated through the number of popular comments one can replace with the word wisdom with a more popular term for G_d. I am only partialy surprised by the number of people who expressed no belief system with this as the form of worship. Make of the thought what you will. I will state interest and the belief that others might express the same. G_d needent be unaproachable, particulary as a concept. light, cause
Edited by cause 10/18/2011 10:49 PM
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Location: California, USA | I guess I should have explained a bit more. :] Mine was a conscious decision after much research into religions (prior to UMS), deciding not to follow any of them and a feeling of 'knowingness' about certain things, energy and the like. I identify with witch craft as I use energy to fulfill my own purposes (w/ respect) and in my practices to help others. I agree witjh you, Disa, on so many points, esp inreply#22301. The use of energy is like prayer or focused intent, and it is in the letting go that power lies. In acknowledging your unity with All, not the separation between god/man/everything else, in working with not against natural laws. That is when you notice shifts. I am pagan, which really means the largely undefined non-Christian, but I am not ANTI-Christian as many pagans are. IMO there is too much divisiveness and the Universe is One.
I'm not sure any of this made sense but I am sleep deprived and only operating on one cylinder as it is... SF |
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| Thanks ~Jesse, I like the way you explain this! It is hard to get into a church today without feeling the condemnation and judgment that seems to be present there by religious practioners.... It was explained by another person posting in this thread that there was circular reasoning going on here and I am guilty of this!!! But I have expressed the 12 step concept of God being approved by every religion who was will to provide feedback... I have tried to express this before and people run into the corners and start explaining they know only because they were there because of someone else's problem (which can mean don't look at me personally) And guess what Atheists and Agnostics are welcome into this belief system.... And by definition Lucifer can be your higher power, and I am supposed to smile and play nice with them and leave that issue alone But the concept of God can be anything from a light bulb to what is depicted on the ceiling of the 16th chapel,,,,, There is one little addition and we are supposed to seek this power and the truth it bears and ask for it to become clear as to what it is and our involvement level... And we do not need a definition of God, just a concept of something higher than ourselves on the spiritual food chain, and a concept of what we do wrong to be responsible for personally.... I can say my belief in God is as simple as I do believe in God and I am holly spirit filled.... but the two are not synomonus.... So if some person were to get zealous and want to attack my God or belief system, they have no clue where to start or end the process.... But hey it is very entertaining to watch this activity in progress I would also like to add that people who have studied the bible might have realized that the Hebrews had someone full time determining what to call God at a certain moment, as this seem to be everchanging.... I would also like to add that I have posted all of this before and it was not challenged then, so yes I am guilty of circular reasoning. But I would like to say this process is one of accepting others exactly as they are, and not to try to change them to our liking, but to help as we feel we can.... But the expression of spiritual advancement does seem to hinge around some pain and fear conquest,,, with a splash of letting go... I call the adventure of feeling strong emotions and releasing them when it seems right "A Spiritual Upgrade" And for the record I have fond more spiritual seekers (or it seemed that way) at 12 step meetings. So addiction can be the best thing to ever have happened to some humans from a spiritual standpoint.... As there can be some serious energy to release there, a lot more than the church could ever instill in some people. Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/19/2011 1:39 PM
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| soulfire - 10/19/2011 12:16 PM
I guess I should have explained a bit more. :] Mine was a conscious decision after much research into religions (prior to UMS), deciding not to follow any of them and a feeling of 'knowingness' about certain things, energy and the like. I identify with witch craft as I use energy to fulfill my own purposes (w/ respect) and in my practices to help others. I agree witjh you, Disa, on so many points, esp inreply#22301. The use of energy is like prayer or focused intent, and it is in the letting go that power lies. In acknowledging your unity with All, not the separation between god/man/everything else, in working with not against natural laws. That is when you notice shifts. I am pagan, which really means the largely undefined non-Christian, but I am not ANTI-Christian as many pagans are. IMO there is too much divisiveness and the Universe is One.
I'm not sure any of this made sense but I am sleep deprived and only operating on one cylinder as it is... SF
It all made sense, to me  Glad to know you and I are on the same wavelength. I agree with you- I am not Anti-Christian, either- just anti-recruitment I've spent my life listening to Christians and trying to "get" what they have- that knowing they seem to be filled with. Trouble is- they don't spend an ounce of time trying to understand my perspective on anything. I still listen. I'm still interested. |
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| leo - 10/18/2011 1:07 PM ...in Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." .....Love and Light Leo And you also indicated it was not in all the historic texts and omitted in some versions of the bibleThe Buddha had a grieving woman who asked for her son back from the dead and asked the Buddha to do this, he asked her for a mustard seed from a house where no had ever died, and she went out and looked for this but in the process she had to share her grief and hope to people who had overcame this same situation, she returned to the Buddha with no mustard seed, but found happiness along the way from sharing in others experiences, as she had to ask if someone had ever died there at each house she went to Was this a lie for the Buddha to tell? Or did this simple request, just be for her to process and release her emotions and see how others have lived on past this event, and for her to find hope in an hour of grief So is there an Old Testament rule that we need the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and to do it without being brutally honest, or painfully accurate.... Sure seems like we are upping the handicap level for the spiritual rescue crews to find us up in here.... LOL So I ask the supplemental question, can the bible be true if there are things that are learning lessons, God seemed to do this with Job and the Leviathan story in Job 41: 1 -34 As there is a description there of a fire breathing Dragon.... But hey just cause I never saw one doesn't mean they don't exist Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | Disa, I spent year not 'recruiting' as you say. I mention it seldom. there is however a sad truth going about the USA. when being offered to 'get' what they have, it isn't that you are not listening right. It is simpily that they don't have what they offer either. This model runs from construction workers to movie stars. A faith should be as something experiential and evidential as modern Christian philosophy holds. Faiths that are not these things and/or unthinkingly dogmatic are something I will avoid. Not because I hate, but because they will not listen to me either. cause
Edited by cause 10/19/2011 7:16 PM
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| Cause, I certainly understand. |
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| Disa, I hope all is well with you Love and Light |
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| Life is good, Foxfires. Thanks. Hope all is well for you, too |
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| Disa, All is well with me, I just wanted to express that I do pay attention to what you express, and you indicate that some do not listen or they do not care.... I do the best I can to not bee too nosy, and to be caring at the same time while not interfering where I am unwelcome.... Hard line to hold and to keep in the balance Love and Light |
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| Oh, Foxfires. You know, in my posts I was referring to people in general, whom I have come across throughout the years in my life. Nothing I wrote was specifically referencing anyone on the forum as far as not listening, etc. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was referring to you, or anyone on the forum. I was mostly speaking my thoughts in generalized life encounters. People I have actually met and been affected by. My apologies if there was any miscommunication. |
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| Disa, All is good, I just wanted to make sure you know I care and listen.... So if someone posts something I feel I can address, I try to help the best I can. Sometimes it seems like there is nothing I can do, when it seems I might be speaking out of turn. Do not worry I was just trying to be polite and observant in a kind way. Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | yes, let it rest. |
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| Cause, Do you feel that others should stop this discussion at this point? I just wanted to make sure I did not offend Disa or others by attempting to convert them to my beliefs, and perhaps grieve their soul As I explain that I believe there are many similarities in religion and spiritual understanding.... As my attempt was to show what we do is not all that different, and some witches care more for people than self proclaimed religious folks.... And religion verses spirituality are both supposed to be the way to God or the higher source.... The difference being who is brave enough to say another is wrong, and to try to alter there path and claim ownership of the correct way and to purge everyone who does not believe them Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | I didn't express a desire to end this conversation. just to enter a place of calm. no religion is completely valueless. but you can't be all religions. perhaps witches were trying through print to convert me to Their beliefs. don't be afraid to be weak, I am not. reason in enough to say another is wrong, or perhaps right. I am disapointed that no one stated that they were Wiccan. I would have liked to have had a discussion with them. I would have liked to share a new understanding of God.
Edited by cause 11/10/2011 5:56 AM
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Location: California, USA | As soon as you put a religious label on yourself you have a point at which you can feel justified and one by which you can judge the world and, if they are not in your camp, find them 'different' from you. You have a point of DIVISION, regardless of the good that comes. As I said before we are one and must see others/everything as such. In witch craft, this is the most important thing if you expect any results from working with the elements. They must be you and you them. There are some who try and place dogma on the practices of a witch, like Wicca but w/out the god and goddess clearly defined. 'this is how you do it'. While you're searching I'll teach you or write a how to book. I shy away from this. OK, I run screaming, I admit.
I come from a long healers line, if not 'witch' at least spirit-led magic, if you want to call it that. I am an intuitive witch. Don't ask me to describe what it is or how I do it. It just is and after studying for years, trying to pin it down, I gave up and let it be. But I am certainly grateful for the experiences and studies along the way. I don't usually tell people what I do(i.e. witch craft, healing etc.). 1. they would not understand 2. they have often assumed Wicca and things have gotten sticky 3. I come from a mormon background and family would not get it 4. it's much more fun to announce it w/out announcing it (see avatar, also in yard, on body and jewelry, etc) and see if anyone notices and understands. So far noone has. When they do, then we'll talk.
Cause- you will rexccognise from kabbalistic studies, tthat the tetragram is reflected in the knot, too. But that is another story. |
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| Jesse, looks like a witch knot to me. But hey I cheated.... You do not need to explain anything to me, as Ladies are entitled to share only what they feel right about sharing Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/28/2011 5:13 PM
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Location: California, USA | DING DING DING you gotit, but do you know the eternal significanceto the symbol and all it represents? I have yet to find many who do. beyond that I like it's obscurity instead of the overused and imbalanced pentacle (pentagram in a circle). I will change my avi and you will see different forms of the same symbol. |
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| Jesse, Remember I said I cheated, that means I right mouse clicked on the symbol and selected save as to my desktop, and read the name you had it saved under, so it trys to save as this as a suggestion on my destop, I know the name of your new icon, k4knot What I do know by looking through the looking glass is you invoking the 4 winds here and possible the archangels stationed at the 4 corners of the earth, possibly the 4 elements of earth, wind, fire and water Love and Light |
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Location: California, USA | correct. At least those are some very basic interpretations. in essence the equal armed cross at it's basic is a holy symbol found in all cultures throughout time which connects us to all that is. it is referenced in the symbols course with many of the meanings.
Edited by soulfire 10/28/2011 7:19 PM
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| Jesse, Same / similar 4 connection directions with like East / air and the other points also but more of an interlacing of people into the dimension.... Or to say likened to the serenity and harmony of things and people of with the triune by 4 point connection... likened to the trinity also similar to an iron cross Love and Light |
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wicc, wicce, wicca
