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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Really wasn't ment to be arguementative as the last day of the week is neither here nor there. Not about right or wrong, just having a little fun. No harm intended. I too am all for being more spiritually intune and reall want many others to be so as well. Its all about perspective I believe we both know someone who can fill us in on perception.
You are correct about many anointed ones that have been here in the past and some continue even today. It is of course sad that so many live day to day in their heads and forget about Heart centered feelings. If we look into our lives we will see clearly how many unimportant tasks, so called "responsibilities" accumlate to fill them up. One master compares them to "housekeeping in a dream". We tell ourselves that we want to spend time on the important things in life, but there never seems to be enough time. Our lives seem to live us.
In my current study of death and dying it has become clear that whatever we have done with our lives makes us what we are when we die. And everything, absolutely everything, counts.
The Buddha said;
This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds.
To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at
the movements of a dance.
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky.
Rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain.
Namaste
Leo |
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| Leo, But an important discussion was basically side tracked, and the question still remains despite other discussions can I safely ask a question, if so was Jesus a deity, and if I can safely ask a secondary question are we also to become or becoming deity in form.... So to further expound,,, is any part of that true, please note you did indicate Jesus was a profit, and you did not dispute that Jesus indicated that Ye are god's.... So with this in mind please proceed!!! Now, lets see if some fur flies Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
Was Jesus a prophet? Yes I believe he was and is.
Prophet, from the Greek word ???????? profitis meaning "foreteller", is an individual who is claimed to have been contacted by the supernatural or the divine, and serves as an intermediary with humanity, delivering this newfound knowledge from the supernatural entity to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy.
To take this another step forward the above assumes that there is a supernatural entity (God). I propose that this so called supernatural entity is not an entity at all but an unbelievably powerful life force that I like to call Source. This life force permeates the entire universe with consciousness. We humans unkowningly tap into the life force through consciousness. By this I don't mean that we are conscious of what or where we are or that we think therefore we exist, no its a "non-local" consciousness. I believe that Seth said it best:
As Seth states in Seth Speaks (1972) Jane Roberts “Consciousness is an attribute of the soul, a tool that can be turned in many directions. You are not your consciousness. It is something that belongs to you and to the soul. You are learning to use it. To the extent that you utilize the various aspects of consciousness, you will learn to understand your own reality; and the conscious self will truly become conscious. If you believe that your consciousness is locked up somewhere inside your skull and is powerless to escape it, if you feel that your consciousness ends at the boundary of your body, then you sell yourself short, and you will think that I am a delusion."
So the question of diety arises; Do I think there are god's and goddess's, absolutely. They are more in tune with consciousness and therefore vibrate at a greater rate and as you know some have been amoung us and others have not. It is my understanding that the more we are in tune with consciousness the greater is our vibratory level and consequently the great the vibration the greater is our place in the universe.
Was or is Jesus a diety? Now you have my back to the proverbial wall, in the sense that we are all co-creators and if one thinks of Source as a diety then yes however, if we look at the definition of a diety (A deity is a recognized preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god.) In that sense then I'd have to say no.
Is the fur standing up on your neck yet???
With much love and light
Leo |
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| leo - 10/15/2011 7:46 PM FF, Was Jesus a prophet? Yes I believe he was and is. Prophet...... Do I think there are god's and goddess's, absolutely. ...... Was or is Jesus a Diety?..... of Source as a diety then yes however, if we look at the definition of a diety... With much love and light Leo So there were god's and goddess's by what you indicate, Ok, This is a side issue just arising You also assert Jesus was both a Prophet and a Deity per you understanding But when Jesus said Ye are god's, what did that mean? Or is this true? Love and light |
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Ph.D. Alumni
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
I think that Jesus was speaking in the vernacular of the times. People were aware of gods however if he had said "ye are spirits of consciousness" it may have lost something in the translation.
As far as gods and goddess's are concerned ( in the process of establishing creation) Source created them in order to lend a hand (so to speak).
Actually I said that Jesus was a great prophet and as far as a diety is concerned I don't think so. Based on the description of a diety, it would infer that a diety is a supernatural entity. I don't thik that Source is an entity at all. Source is a powerful force of nature not a diety as the description of a diety would have us believe.
It's truly semantics in a way.
Namaste
Leo
Actually the information about gods and goddess's came from a reliable non-physical entity of whom you know.
Edited by leo 10/15/2011 9:58 PM
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| Hey Leo, Thanks for taking to time to address the questions that I posed!!! Yeah it is an issue to take to heart! I went through the decision process carefully, it looks like you have carefully considered this too. I sort of think I have slightly different conclusions and feelings.... Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
You're welcome. I always enjoy a good debate as long as no one gets pushy. I have come to the conclusion that we are all here in the physical reality learning lab to learn something specific. We are here to follow our paths as we are directed. I would open another discussion (perhaps) and state that we really are led to where it is we need to be. Regardless of what we think, there is little free will. Sure if you want to do minor things like what color shirt you'll wear or do I want soy milk or almond milk. How many times have we heard about people missing flights that later crash or I'm glad I decided to drive through town instead of taking the freeway as there was a terrible crash just as I would have been there. Coincidence or being taken care of by our guides or angels? My favorite substantiating evidence is in the Near death experience where many have been told that they'll have to go back as they haven't yet completed their experience.
You certainly have some different conclusions and feelings and that is a really good thing. Perhaps shared knowledge can help someone who is seeking. It is always good to agree to disagree. The bottom line is that we will experience what it is we are supposed to experience either in this human experience or in the next.. As I was told many times by my non-physical mentor, everything happens for a reason there is no such thing as chance or luck.
Blessings
Love and Light on your Path
Leo
Edited by leo 10/16/2011 1:29 PM
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| Leo, Agreed, but for the record I do not say what is true or untrue from a popular sense, I like to hinge on what is possible for the future.... And this seems to take a mindset change for most.... So I do not feel anyone is right or wrong, I sort of tend to think in terms of what applies to me.... If someone poses a problem asking for input, I share the best advice I feel that will help, but it is what I feel from inside as truth, As I have problems with many teachers and they way they do a few things.... But it is not for me to correct them, just to do my best to not mess up what they are doing.... As they do are doing the best they know how, or what seems right at the time.... And I like the every religion and spirituality approved prayer of God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.... The only thing I can change is me and the way I feel about what someone else is doing.... I can also geographically vote, and that is stay away from things that feel are not in my best interest But again we are back to the reason for this thread in this forum and it is about accepting others who are beyond most peoples understanding.... So I do not have to like or love someone to help them, but as a human to allow someone to go through a kangaroo court inquisition in the name of religion that they also believe to be true is what this thread is all about..... So how well do people go through their own personal emotions and realize from inside when they get upset as to what is them, and their own perception or are they doing God's job because he is busy and rationing out judgment as God has given them the assignment to do his work as he is too busy.... These people who do the Inquisition seem to forget the story of the prodigal son who asked for his inheritance TO GO PARTY WITH..... More or less true so please just roll with it... but the father said yes and did it and then when the son came back just hoping to work in the barn and eat the food for the animals, the dad said brig a Ring and a Robe..... Huh slightly different approach than the inquisition..... Both had the same God or you would think so, but the way they were about their own emotions was different.... How can I love you if I hate everything I see and do as it reminds me of a past failure and future pain of it happening again.... Why do you think in Jude when Miachel was staring down on the devil he did not accuse him, and only said in the name of the Lord.... If he accused him Miachel just might not win (Sheer speculation but I need some liberty here to express some thing where it sink in and I am borrowing this expression, not that it means any truth but as a perspective to see this differently) as battles are won on the spiritual plane by what we believe, and how we deploy our emotions upon the ethereal plane.... Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/16/2011 2:53 PM
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| Leo, Start a new thread on Near death experiences and sort of slowly let it evolve, if I may advise.... Every thread that I have done that I covered most of the facts I felt, fairly well in my first post, did not do so well.... As this forum seems to be designed to help people who are looking for answers, not so much for the person who knows the subject thoroughly to expound more.... Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
I agree that there are seekers who look for answers and a few who like to share experiences. My post on death and dying is mostly an experiment to see if some actually even think of the subject. In my current reading I find that most western thought tends to ignore it, however in eastern thought it seems to be more accepted.
Perhaps a near death thread would be an interesting topic. Maybe there are some who have experienced it. |
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| Leo, So are you going to start another thread? |
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| I've only skimmed through the thread because I am short on time. Has it been mentioned that all Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccans? I think it's an important aspect of the Craft of the Wise. Witchcraft is as old as time, Wicca- as stated in another post, is not.
Blessings,
D~ |
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| Hey All, I know a lady who goes to church every week and practices reiki and is a reiki master.... She cures disease and helps people with physical alments.... When people are up front and the church leaders lay hands on people and pray for them, she sends in the reiki energy for their healing.... She also runs around and catches and helps little old ladies get to their bible study class and catches them when they slip.... She has been truthful with her mother about what she does, and her mom knows what she does works, as she also sees into people and gets insight and is able to tell them as an psychic..... But her mom tells her she is a witch.... Ever tried to win an argument with your mom, yeah the ones the bible tells us to honor.... our parents..... So she agrees with her mom and goes to church too, so not to detract from the point or create a splinter, but is this sort of an introduction of what we call as a definition of things we closest understand it to be.... So if this was church sanctioned action, this would be defined as one thing miracle and future Saint material, but since she is an sort of outsider and the people are not ready to accept that everyone is capable of healing, it is considered on the other end of the spectrum, so is this spirituality in the closet or witchcraft.... Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | Disa, I was when I started this post I was asking about Wicca. because, the thought of worshiping wisdom seems more formal there. I hadn't seen another thread on the subject. I am going to search for it. cause
Edited by cause 10/17/2011 2:04 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
My question is, is it ok for, lets say Benny Hinn, to perform these healings, which is questionable at best or a lay person who can actually do Reiki? My nonphysical spiritual mentor informed me that we all have power beyond our wildest dreams. Many heal through a myriad of methods but is this witchcraft or our use of the power that we have to help one another. As I have previously stated, the power of the universal natural energy force is vastly powerful. Tapping into this power is what gives us the ability to help others(and ourselves). It is another of those semantic issues where "witchcraft" has a negative connotation, whereas "spiritual" is a more accepted positive term, used in a religious way.
I believe it is the church's way to control the "flock". They really can't allow folks to think that they have more power than the church. That is precisely why so many parished in the inquisition. The interesting thing is that the church distanced itself from the killing by turning heretics over to secular authorities. The Senate in Venice in 1521 refused to approve such killing and Pope Leo X wrote that they could not appeal or change any ecclesiastical judgements. He thretened them with "censure and other appropriate measures." That of course was a extreme during that period. Now they simply excommunicate you.
It is as you say "spirituality in the closet".
Light and Love
Leo
Edited by leo 10/17/2011 2:45 PM
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Location: California, USA | I am a witch but do not follow Wicca. I've been away from the board for a time and also skimmed... |
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| Leo, It goes back to intentions and what can be gained from something.... I do not generally like to indicate the names of who did what wrong, as this seems to be something of a negative tally sheet that I do not want to become responsible for as this seems like an acquisition or me holing someone else responsible for what they did wrong.... If I knew every wrong thing others did and what is right and wrong then I am an instrument of the law.... The greatest commandment is love, sort of indicates I need to find something to like about them and focus upon till I can feel kindness and acceptance, when I think of them and accept and find what they have done that puts a smile on my face.... How can I love church folks if I don't spend time with them and smile and be nice and have nothing to accuse them of.... So from their own doctrine can you show them where the light is found.... I do not mean telling them what not to do.... Because none is perfect and human too at the same time.... IT goes with the territory.... If we have resentmentment we have fear and strong emotions and reasons we are not at peace with life.... Do we need to tell where others are wrong from our perception.... What if we are wrong about every thought and Idea we have ever had.... Maybe it is is as simple as following the love in our heart and accepting the good we can find in everything. I am no one to say another is wrong for any action.... So if you ask are they wrong, am I wrong, I might ask you how does the question of who is wrong make you feel..... If you ask for help with a problem this means you want help, and declare a willingness to try to find something in what I explain to help with the problem... So I give no criticism here, or do not intend to do this, and if so my bad.... But offer help to someone who desire resolution to a problem or emotions, to the best of my ability, or say you are above my pay grade and need a better /different healer.... As to your question I am not a judge or to indicate who is right or wrong, this does not concern me as to who can heal or should heal.... Why do we always go back to discussions of who is doing what right and wrong? Could you stop this action? If so, should you stop this? By what power and cost would you sacrifice to stop this if you could? Love and Light |
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| Leo, Here is what Paul did and read this carefully and draw your own conclusions... but notice every detail of this before you draw any conclusions! So realize exactly what is going on before you go to a decision about the implications of this Acts 16:16-18 (KJV) 16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Love and Light |
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| soulfire - 10/17/2011 3:25 PM
I am a witch but do not follow Wicca. I've been away from the board for a time and also skimmed...
Glad to see you here again, Soulfire. I think you are making my point  My understanding is that Witchcraft is a practice, Wicca is a religion. I do know people who are Catholic Witches and also Christian Witches- they label themselves as such. I choose not to subscribe to any religion, do not label myself as anything other than spiritual, and to practice what works for me. I appreciate and quite enjoy anyone else's perspective and right to practice what works for them.
As far as the who is right/who is wrong debate- I don't really see why that's ever an issue- people choose what is right for them. Those of us who do not subscribe to the biblical concepts as ultimate truth have a difficult time with it . I, personally am not as well-versed in the Bible as many of you are- but to me it is just another religious book to study and learn about. Because it is not the foundation for my being, much of what is discussed as Biblical Truth does not resonate with me. I think God is bigger than religion and cannot be confined to one book. I think the ultimate truth is bigger than the Bible- so any discussion of what is right as ultimate truth based only in the Bible makes no sense to me.
I do enjoy all of your discussion about the topic, I will read each and every word. A lot of it seems to go in circles, though. I'm not looking to debate, or to be explained anything further in order that I may see the light. I've been round that bend many, many times before and am not interested in revisiting it. Just thought I'd put a few of my thoughts out there
Edited by Disa 10/17/2011 4:37 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Hello Disa and good to see you here again Soulfire,
I couldn't agree with you more about the bibical concepts. While I am one who also does not subscribe to the edict's and ultimatum's associated with the bible, I feel that it is important for each soul to find his/her own way. I, like you feel that there really isn't any one book that could possibly be the total truth. The Truth is by far greater than anything we humans could begin to understand. We are simply not equipped to know the Truth. As the bible tells us "And Ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32) however the bibical truth doesn't resonate with me either.
We each find our paths and are led in the direction that appears as right in our heart.
Thanks for the info on witch's, Wicca and Witchcraft.
Blessings
Leo |
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| I've finally read through the entire thread and there is so much I could comment on, but it's difficult to do so after the fact with the "quoting" and such. One thing that struck me above- and I cannot now remember who said it or exactly which post it was in, but something to the effect of different people having different terms for the word "prayer"... and it brought to mind that prayer is focused intent, much the same as a spell is-just focused intent.
My thought about working with energy is that when you are working with the forces of nature, your intent is likely to manifest, for the greater good of all- and it harm none. When working against the forces of nature, that's when the possiblity for trouble arises. We may pray, cast, attempt to manifest all day long, but if it is not meant to be, it will not be.
As far as the worshiping of dieties- I'm not really into that, but when defining the term God- if including the feminine and masculine aspects which balance the "source" then I feel those two,( God and Goddess) are separate aspects of the same thing. To me, it all leads back to the "source" as Leo explained it. I'm more along that wavelength. "Worshiping" in general is a term I have trouble with- choosing rather to respect the changing of the seasons, acknowledge the force that causes these things, and give thanks for my ability to witness such miraculous occurences.
We've all got differing views, many of them lead to the same thing. To my knowledge, Christianity and paganism have too much that divides them, Reincarnation, karma, the after life. While Christianity focuses on Heaven and Hell and what leads to those "place"s, my understanding is that Wiccans and a majority of witches and/or pagans don't really believe in those concepts, therefore they are not something we (non christians) are motivated by.
Hopefully soulfire will correct me where I have misunderstood, and add to aspects that could be expanded upon.
But once again, I am not Wiccan- have studied some witchcraft, and identify more with paganism than Christianity. Cause your initial post is directed at those who practice Wicca- I'm guessing they study more within their own covens and don't branch out too much into the realm of metaphysics, but then again- I could be wrong.
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| Hey All, It was my intent when I decided to commit to commenting on this thread was to assist in the understanding of what the bible presents and how it reads.... The reason for they way I explain the things the way I do is to present what is possible through hope. But to have hope I feel it is important to not feel, think or say negative emotions about others. So it does not matter what I think or say to another from the stance of trying to change others. People will find their inner beauty and strength if the decide to look for it. So in an attempt to explain what I know of what is explained in the bible, I added scriptures for certain points to ponder.... At one point I mentioned a binding, and one person posted they were unfamiliar with people who did witchcraft and how they did bindings..... I went on to explain where it was explained in the bible..... So it seemed like there were many who did not understand this was in the bible.... So I explained as much as I felt the audience could absorb in this overlap area of spiritual issues from an alternate source.... People seem to have a perception that the bible has to be either right or wrong.... I loaded the perception that it could be correct and everything else that I have also read could be right too.... So how could this all be true, the way we perceive truth might be bent real bad.... As others have told us how to process and what is right and wrong for way too long.... So again, I share that, what if we are supposed to believe some things to get us by until we can deeper understand the truth. Even UMS studies indicate that there is a dark night of the soul, and some entities are stuck in misery,,,, So who is going to name the place where they are.... And things are similar, so often from religion to spiritual materials that it is uncanny.... That should be a major clue that we are looking at the cause and effects with blinders on.... And from a religious point of view the first problem in heaven seemed to be the bright morning star (Lucifer) refusing to bow before what appears to be man.... So who would follow down this path of dissension and cause more separations and divisions in the ones who love God.... I want nothing to do with telling people they are right or wrong.... I want to help people find the light inside of their own existence.... The rest is above my pay grade.... Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | I have met wiccans whom regularly attend Christian gatherings and sunday services. They likely don't tell others from there congragation. That is very much their busness. When we are speaking about witches we encounter people that where able to be of assisstance or hinderance because of their knowledge of any number of subjects. the initiation is likely one of the oldest in many lands. I will leave that to others for now for the reason that many of you are likely more knowledgable (teaching someone of there own beliefs is likely to fall on deaf ears if not toward a silent derision). I went with wicca as a subject because of part of my ethinic background and the thought of wisdom as vennerated or worshiped as a part of a wiccan practice. If I am mistaken or not I think deifing wisdom something as a philosophy of religion and special metaphysics is interesting and worthy of thought and discussion. obscure Bible references are theology. I am afraid that I am a person who is looking for the central issues of metaphysics. And, in this case the philosophy of a religion that deifies wisdom. I have my Biblical input to give as well. I will say now that even if not proven now to Christianity the argument and search are being made. The prayer I mentioned is modern and expresses wisdom as " . . .lord and ruler. . ." that should be enough for someone whom is expressively and strictly Christ-centered to the exclusion of all else to take notice of. When needy, wisdom provides. when lost, wisdom shows a path. When there is strife, wisdom works toward peace. When wisdom knocks, do you open the door a crack? When wisdom is upon us are the foolish the only opposition? I express this because I wish to discuss it. I am particularly emotive, please forgive. I will find a calm space within. disa, I understand the attraction to paganism. to be free and excited, living with yourself and feeling no need to explain yourself. It feels good. I find that eventualy it is unfulfiling. many pagans go back to other religion as they become older. I have memories of dancing around a bonfire to the forefront of my mind. I have no real shame in doing this. I have no knowledge of a thou shalt not dance around a fire. in one of Goethe's more famous plays the wizzard and his intended partner rush together on the pire. Goethe's answer for this and the reason they are not dammed is simply 'lieb' (love) cause |
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| Hey Cause, I am at a loss to understand if someone expresses a desire to be left alone about a subject like conversion, whey descend and deploy hard sell techniques,,, it seems this is more reason that religion is shunned by as people run from the religion dogma pushers. I have looked at the plan of salvation as laid out in the bible and as humans have interpreted it... Where does it indicate that people are supposed to bend or break over the free will of another's to accept what believe.... If this action is any unsolicited behavior, is this not forceful conversion, or an attempt to set the world right by personal perspective.... I watched the movie Passion of the Christ and it was supposed to gory and heart breaking.... Well I was not in the least bit upset or moved by what was portrayed.... But when I watched Schindlers list I was not right for a few days with grief and felt a broken heart So am I uncaring, about Jesus' plight.... Huh lets look at this a full blown Deity in human form being crucified on the cross for our sins, and was foretold from early on..... Nothing I can do to stop it or change what happened, and as a man I can not lessen his pain.... So for what reason would I possible become upset if this was done for the benefit of all mankind? Look at Schindlers List, loving caring people being exterminated by religious zealots who felt they knew God's will for everyone else and decide to take their knowledge of God and torture souls and exploit life in every way possible and to strip hope from their prisioners.... What chance did these people have to stop this tyranny? Is it wisdom to try to convert the people who do not see God from the place and way another does? Is there ever any end to military style conversion of faith? I have read in the bible where it is stated that .... Be ready to explain the hope of faith.... and I see this as an answer to a question,,, so the person sort of needs to desire to hear the expression of another's faith.... Otherwise you are talking about Christians who are ready to dust off their feet and ride the lightning of the rapture and be forgiven for the things they have done wrong and to never look inside and remove personal hate from past fear and future fear of encountering emotions they have not personally forgiven themselves and others for Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Foxfires,
While I totally agree with what you are saying about unsolicited bible thumping (as I like to call it), there is one othe issue. Jesus said in Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (should be in red) from the NIV. However, the most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.
So kinda in defense of the do-gooders, they really believe they are going to save us Pagans/non-Christians. So another edict presented to Christians even if it might not (and probably isn't) in the original text. Does it justify their behavior? Probably not.
Your comparison between the crucifixion (which I doubt happened or at least not to Jesus) and Schindlers List is very well taken. I can appreciate your views on it.
Love and Light
Leo
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wicc, wicce, wicca
