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Location: Bellingham | I would be interested is anyone that practices wicca that is on this site and would be interested in such a dialog. I have been inspired by a biography of a man that took to defending 'witches' in court. It almost ruined him, but the so called witches survived(most of whom where folk healers. midwives, and other knowledgeable people. The person in question was christian and knighted. The basis for his moral descision was in part a completely different interpritation of the Papal decree that fueled the secular paranoid reaction that the inquisitions' horror. I am christian and very much deplore the violent nature of some of the paranoiac insanity and condomnation(murder) of people that where considered witches. the engish language has given us a difficulty of old english become modern. that difficulty of to my understanding the one of wicc, meaning 'wise one' and a modernization of the term as witch. when considering this issue I came across the basis of what the wicc, and wicca, ment and means. This meaning being wise one wisdom and the religion of the worship of wisdom. some consideation later, the terms felt less like condomnation and more like a consideration that christians should, as thinking christans, perhaps should make. the larger statement being it is perhaps better to worship wisdom than to worship the vaguely wise. The reason for this argument actualy biblical and also has an extention in biblical judaic thought. Read the gospel of John chapter one verse one. or the names of God in kabbalah. the concept is suprisingly there in black and white. My apologies to those whom require red and white. My reiterated point being perhaps God is the sum of all wisdom. To the many that will cry foul as a Christian, and "we defy you" as a wiccan, I say we want both of you. dispite your resentments. please excuse my religious tendancy and an ernest prayer that is modern and written and circulated by christians. "Come wisdom, lord and ruler, root of Jesse, key of David, rising sun, Emanuel, come Lord Jesus." cause
Edited by cause 10/13/2011 7:37 PM
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| Cause I am not Wiccan, but understand you point and feel that who am I to judge another, as Jesus never threw a stone of condemnation, and even the the Archangel Michael would not raise an acquisition against the devil in Jude 1:9 But from a personal experience of being spirit filled, I thought a few years back, that I was supposed to spiritually bind witches of any fashion, till I was starting my first binding, and I got a loud and clear message to leave them alone.... I was pretty naive back then and idealistic.... The 3 wise men or the word that translates for this in the Greek seems to be very close to the translation of sorcerer//// That is from my memory though So my point is I understand what you are sharing here.... I do apologize since this does not address your post, as you specifically asked, but wanted to share my experience and to be helpful Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Well now, I tend to lean towards Neo-Paganism. The majority of Pagans are not committed to a single defined tradition, but understand Paganism as encompassing a wide range of non-institutionalized spirituality, as promoted by the Church of All Worlds, the Feri Tradition and other movements. Notably, Wicca in the United States since the 1970s has largely moved away from its Gardnerian roots and diversified into eclectic variants.
Paganism generally emphasizes the sanctity of the Earth and Nature. Pagans often feel a duty to protect the Earth through activism, and support causes such as rainforest protection, organic farming, permaculture, animal rights and so on. Some Pagans are influenced by Animist traditions of the indigenous Native Americans and Africans and other indigenous or shamanic traditions.
While I neither practice Wicca or Neo-Paganism I find the tennets to be very interesting. A quote from a church and school of Wicca:
"The great thrust of the Craft is that it encourages spiritual development in all people in any way they intuitively feel is right for them. On its social side the Craft teaches connection with nature and the idea that one should progress through harming no one. This then leads us to a very simple definition: a religion that encourages its members to progress in their own way and in their own time to greater spiritual understanding. A Religion of Salvation through Wisdom and Exploration "
In addition; "If it harm none, do what you will."
I. Development
A. Starting in the early nineteenth century, a new natural religion gradually evolved. It gathered momentum in the mid-twentieth century.
B. Many authors and philosophers helped to develop the magical modern religion and to articulate parts of its belief structure.
C. The religion finds its roots in ancient ways. It has psychic connections and sympathy with those who were burnt in the medieval period, and indeed with all individuals who have been oppressed and killed in the name of religion.
D. The recent "festival" movement has enhanced the growth and diversity of the religion.
II. Literature
There is no official text; for the Craft is a religion of life and of nature, not of "the book."
III. Explicit Religious Doctrines
A. God (deity) is immanent and transcendent.
B. Every living entity has a spirit which is connected to and part of every other spirit. Humans are a part of nature.
C. Divinity manifests itself through all living beings. Nature itself is divine (but not something to directly "worship") as is the Cosmos as is each person.
D. God and goddess images are recognized as aspects of a greater divinity that is unknowable.
IV. Ritual and Worship
A. Observances may be group or solitary. Regular worship services are scheduled in harmony with the moon's phases by groups (covens or congregations) of members.
B. Each worship site is constructed anew on each occasion of meeting. It is defined by new consecrated circles, and may be located anywhere.
C. Only coven members are allowed to enter the innermost circle.
I find this to be spiritual and much of it I intuitively feel is right.
Blessings
Leo
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Location: Bellingham | foxfires, In my thought you very much have address my thought. To the Ideal everyone should come to Christ's table. (and yes to all wicce out there I mean conversion). the thought of the three magi(wise one/mage) coming to worship the child Jesus exemplifies the act of a mage(or witch) coming to christ. Just as modern Christian rhetoric describes. I am not sure what you mean by "binding" witches refers to. I would state that comments like sealed in Christ or the title 'slave of God' are not derogitory, but indicate a passionate relationship with christ. this is not directly to my intended conversation. part of what I am attempting to communicate is simply a difficulty of language as well as some needed compassion/reconcilliation. The direct question I asked is not of these statements, but are quite valid. There are spiritual practices in the world that are unhealthy. Perhaps however we lack the common language to discuss them. And, finding practices such practices is not anathma to me and perhaps healthy to know of. I seek a common language as well as learning of practices. I rarely bring this to the forefront of conversation. But, I do believe it can be healthy, If to my understanding (I know we may disagree) the practice is not. please excuse my poor spelling cause errata By practice I do not intent to condem the entire practice of wicca(or spiritual practice) but an individual practice that may be unhealthy.
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 6:58 PM
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Location: Bellingham | leo, I generaly reject idolitry, and any pantheon as a object of worship. I will comment briefly. as I am afraid I am under a time restaint I I know the modern for of wicca is considered 'new' but you may be surrprised to know that some ancient practices have been found within recent memory. These practices where disclosed in Wales/G.B. II there is an oral tradition to these practices and monuments are of course kept. III modern wicca is exactly that modern. I know little of the present practices. The name wicca is derived from the word 'Wise'. and there are likely many forms of wisdom that people accept. IV sunday, worship in tents, initiation, all these things are spectacularly simmilar. The form of the an Idea of wisdom is an english simmilarity. It is unfortunate that a polemic of disregard has risen between the two parties. no-one need reject a person because the other rejects their beliefs unless unreasonable emnity come between them. As you have stated you "(you believe in what) intuitively feel is right" this is a statement of morality and desernment. I feel neither difficulty nor defiance to any authority inaccepting these statements. I simply move towards them in a different way. sometimes love is all that matters whether Lenny Kravitz or Goethe is making the statment. I know little of paganism. I will not reject you because of your belief in it. The space I am comming from is one of intolerance (an encounter with harsh dogma of a closed sociaty that likes not me). I attempt to be serene. right now, you, because you do not reject me seem much more Christian(or christlike) then some of those whom call themselves so. I can mearly call them errent, and continue with my day. light, cause
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 6:39 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | WICCE is the female and WICCA is the male in the Wiccan belief. fyi |
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| Cause, As far as the binding see Matthew 16:19
And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So again it is intention and the strength of belief that we can manifest, Remember Jesus was quoted as saying in Matthew 18:6 But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Sort of when people do things that are unkind for no reason. Understanding these two scriptures together is how people are able to do healing and bindings, but it does not seem that any person can just sit down and perform a binding or a healing, there seems to need to be a commitment to selfless acts before the energy can flow In Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto you, that you have smitten me these three times? :29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. :30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. :31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face :32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why have you struck your donkey these three times? behold, I went out to withstand you, because your way is perverse before me :33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain you, and saved her alive. The point of the story of Balaam and the story is he had the power to curse Israel, but did not seem to check in with the spirit of God before he was on his way to curse them.... So if we have the power and abuse it, there is a high price to pay, and we do not have to always be in the will of the highest good or that of God, as once the power is given to a person.... As the bible says once anointed always annointed..... Read up on King David and King Psaul before David was a King.... And David would not touch a hair from Psaul's head.... But also notice Psalm 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.... So using the energy properly or improperly can cost you your life, sure could have for Moses, as he stood before God and risked all to save Israel.... But another thing to also note is the energy may not come directly from God, as how could Moses stand in opposition to God if God were the source..... Directly the source for his energy.... There are a few stories in Genesis where people did things to cause change in births of people and animals, and the mandrake root was used for fertility... by what appeared to be God's chosen people.... I think that Jeremiah used wood to make an Iron Axe float... Casting straws or lots is also an approved method of deciding who does what, or to divide spoils..... Now depending on how you tell the story and who was involved, it is considered Godly or witchcraft..... by the people watching..... So from my interpretation it boils down to John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends, Are we willing to give our life to help a friend or better yet a stranger.... In the story of Balaam, he was to be paid to curse someone..... And God had plans for them as this was Israel.... The desire to help people get past judging others and saying they are wrong, is as simple as doing it, and taking it up in the spirit world, and following gut intuition. There is a large string attached to our neck in the spirit world, and it is our kundalini energy that a Cherubim can descend on us in short order if we do have the power and tell us where we are wrong.... This is no small matter to piss off this energy LOL But with Wiccans I found they are generally 3 times more reserved than most Christians, and forgive and lets much more slide before they go balistic.... So is Christianity doing what a preacher tell people to do, or is it finding God in our heart and feeling the energy, and being willing to die to help a friend..... Many who indicate they are Christian have little patience for other people and make rules that they can not even follow.... But if you have ever tried to upset a witch, they do not get upset, they get sad and sorrowful for how they feel inside.... As a general note/// But be careful as they can only hold their emotions back so long before they deploy them..... And then claiming you are a Christian might not work quite as well as you desire LOL I sort of feel that when the bible talks about entertaining stranger and angels and entertain them unawaredly.... that when a person is torn or rent in the spirit and we can not see this and are rude to these people, there is sort of a glaze put on the people who are unkind or uncaring to them.... To explain this better if a person is in serious need of help and begs in prayer for God to help, there is karmic introduction to the power, and people who are kind at that moment and heed the call open the high power connection circuits to both heaven and earth, and sort of get a power assist from heaven and earth.... But people who are unkind to them, sort of get shut in to the power and get glazed over..... So to live with honor of what we feel and to rather die than bring a moment of hardship to those who are hurting is what Wiccans seem to do, and I can not stand against them as they posture their-self to protect what they love.... But the only thing we can change is the way we feel about people and things on the physical plane.... Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/14/2011 11:15 AM
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| Hey Cause, I understand that there are different approaches to finding the connection to the divine and what I call God.... And the apostles of the New Testament seemed to make this connection, and have the ability to do this, but because of Anias and Saphira and their death, others were afraid to join them, so the power seems to have have been lost.... Or the continuity of this power, as not too many have been doing this since. In Job 12:7-10 (KJV) We find:
But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
And I ask the question of when is the last time you had someone from a Christian church indicate to the earth shall teach you and try to feel what it has to tell us.... So this seems to be how to become feeling of what is around us,,,, If we try our best to figure out what is going on, we realize the earth does not exactly have an English translator to tell us straight up, so there is something to realize here.... So the question of praying to an idol is raised, and rightly so, as this is what the problem was, the Golden Calf did not have the answers to what they were seeking and if they got to the point where they felt this was the answer to all of their problems, they had more conceptual problems, and God was addressing this.... So no Idolatry does not help as far as I can tell.... But this goes back to intent and only God can judge a heart and we seem to get jealous when others are closer to what looks like God's approval.... Like the issue of Cain spilling Abel's blood because God seemed to approve of his offering more. So Cain had a problem with God, and took it out on his brother, and we became our brothers keeper by the excuse Cain laid out to God, kinda cool the way that works, we sort of get to eat our words there LOL But what one person defines as prayer another may define as meditation or seeking the answer from God through the Holly Spirit In Revelations 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.... I see there are 4 angels present and I know where they are and I ADDRESS them daily, and ask if I am in the will of God to assist me, and if I am out of the will of God, to shut me down, and I will do my best to not complain when thing play out at God's speed, and if I need to stop a behavior or action.... So I do not pray to them as angels..... But to the point of Genesis 18:2....three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: Abraham bowed called LORD and prayed to three men before he feed them.... But these guys were apparently angels in human form.... Abraham felt this to be true, but the dudes at Sodom did not feel the same thing from these dudes..... So again it is perception as far as I can tell when it comes to what is wright and wrong,,,, and God know where we are... As this is a past tense account accepted by many as the truth through the Holly Scriptures.... But what is Holly, seeking the divine even if it is not in our best interest in every case, IS that not what the entire bible an explanation of? The bible does have this really cool loophole of "Judge not, least ye be judged" Hey Just my ramblings and musings!!!
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| leo - 10/13/2011 7:05 PM ..... IV. Ritual and Worship A. Observances may be group or solitary. Regular worship services are scheduled in harmony with the moon's phases by groups (covens or congregations) of members. B. Each worship site is constructed anew on each occasion of meeting. It is defined by new consecrated circles, and may be located anywhere. C. Only coven members are allowed to enter the innermost circle. Yes, Leo I agree that Christians do celebrate by Moon and Earth phases.... Easter is found year by the following formula: The first Sunday after the the first full Moon after Spring Equinox, or just look it up on a calander... The inner circles are called, I think, most of them, are anyway.... Deacons But strangely enough Sunday is the first day of the week, and Saturday is the seventh day of the week.... Love and Light |
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| Hey There, I find that people who have anger and can not release it are more spiritual than meets the eye, in fact people at 12 step programs have felt the strong energy of emotions and have trouble releasing it.... But the point of discernment I feel is the emotional push when different people speak at these events.... Anyone can attend.... I have found that if I close my eyes I can feel where people are and some of the emotions they feel, they sort of flow thru me while they speak..... The 12 step program indicates that we need to let go of past anger that we have for everyone before we can get on the spiritual superhighway..... People in the Reiki and world use the phrase release things no longer beneficial and the 4 year energy school like Barbra Brennen's indicated when we are forgiving and being forgiven,,,, forgiving our self, we need to ask for our missing soul pieces back from those we harbored anger toward.. But the really cool thing about about the 12 step literature approach to peace with world, self, and God is Every major religion decided to adopt what was there for people to find happiness, (Wonder how many were thinking huh "hopeless addict that I would otherwise have to help clean up after their mess" but all kidding aside the 12 step literature was passed around as religiously neutral and spiritually based as what do we all agree that can just help people find the God of their understanding..... So from adversity of addiction comes the one document that every religion agrees upon..... Huh I can say something positive comes from the addiction process, Religion can finally agree on a unified text.... No other cause that I know of has done this, I would gladly have spent 2 lifetimes in full on addiction just to get religious leaders to agree on some points, as we have to give God something to use to get our attention. The steps are keenly based on seeking the will of God daily for our lives, and it does not matter what define God to be, just a higher power, and for it to show us it's will on a daily basis..... I think they describe God as a male, but I do not need to know God's gender, as it does not really matter or change the truth of what God is or is not, also I do not want to be presumptuous Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | we are told that the women came to the tomb on the morning of the first day of the week (Mark 16:2), which was Sunday, and found that Jesus was risen. Much later Christians adopted Sunday as their Sabbath, in honor of the resurrection. That is why we now have a 2 day weekend, with the week ending right in the middle of it. Of course the Jewish Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week which is Saturday.
This as usual doesn't hold true across the board. Many calendars start with Monday and others with Saturday. Its all very complicated, anyone interested in the various ways in which calendars are created can check out;
http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html
Leo
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Location: Bellingham | Leo, It is my understanding that wicc is the personage that claims the title Witch, wicce the wisdom in question, and wicca the religion in question. I have I believe mentioned this before. the male and female aspects of these groups easily represented as wisdom of the sexes and there archetypes. some modern witch-craft has embraced other beliefs that represent the deity. the representation is not completely surprising to me. This is however the The forum of an unknown as we have no representitve of this movement. |
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Location: Bellingham | settle down everybody, I did not intend to question anyone's bible scolarship. I honestly haven't read all the comments yet. Hovever, I have yet to read an item that speaks directly to the issue I posted. I will read them more fully and then comment. |
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| Dear Leo, I guess I got in wrong with the whole seventh day and God rested during the creation, and remember the sabbath day and keep it Holly, and the Sabbatical at 7 Years and to take a fallow period on the land and the Jubilee every 49 years and all debts are forgiven.... But I for some strange reason thought that Saturday was the last day of the week, and Sunday was the first day of the week, and it does not really matter what others think and we are supposed to do what we know to be right. But the point is Christians and other religions typically used the first day of the week and some opt for the Saturday day of worship, and Blue law enforcement.... As far as I know being a Christian is a feeling in our heart, and it is accepting the scripture John 3:16, by most standards. So if someone were to ask you how to become a Christian, you would sort of use this scripture to get them there.... But remember Jesus said I have sheep that are not of this fold, and when he was surrendering his life on the cross he also indicated that the man being crucified with him would also be in paradise with him. He did not get to read these scripture or get baptized, but a change of heart took place and as one man wanted to be spared by the powers of a deity incarnate and get them down from the cross, and the other said leave him be, he is righteous and just.... And then Jesus saw the inner conversion and someone placing the value of another higher than their own self and being willing to surrender to death peacefully for another's sake..... As far as I know that is the true definition of a Christian.... Love and Light |
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| Cause, I will hold off on more comments till you get a chance to ketchup, I was just having some fun LOL, Sorry Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | Vaguaries, red herring, and straw dogs, gentilemen. I may not as, one of you said, going to be any more likely to speak to a practitioner of wicca because I am christian, but pay attention to those appealing to higher authority, and do so yourselves. sometimes oblique references are not enough to bury an issue. My statement, put bluntly, is do you feel that the worship of wisdom is a valid and acceptible practice. I ask in the context of The Christian and Judaic as well as it exists metaphysically(philosophically). It follows in course that we touch on the theological. But, to be direct in these things is my aim, please see it so. cause
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 7:34 PM
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Location: Bellingham | I did confuse two of you(foxfires and leo) please excuse. In a thread of my clarification I have been unclear.
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 7:45 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Fox,
I believe if you reread what I stated it is just what you said. I simply added a little Biblical scripture to show it. In the days of Jesus (being a Jew) the Sabbith was on Saturday. Thats when God rested. So it must have been on Sunday when: And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Is it coincidental that it was on a "SUN"day? |
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| Leo, I am soo busted her, you are right the first day is important!!!! as it has a sun in it, wow how did I miss that.... Love and Light |
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Location: Bellingham | Today is still friday and I am awaiting the fish I have in the oven. sometimes creature comforts are desireable. desireable wether you consider them false rubrics or anacronisms. I see that this friday they are good to eat, false rubric or not. My hope in writing this thread is hope for a group that will not need to give up an identity. What we cannot now may come later. the Idea of G_d came for most people before our meeting him. I feel lucky to have a small part of his blessing. Peace be with you, cause |
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| Hey Cause, In John 10:34, I find the following / Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? So how can we be god's if we are Christians and believe that Jesus is the way to God? Could it be that God can be found inside of us? So could it be said that the way to God is through the way we look at god / God? And the whole perception of God as being the way we get there? If we are not to condemn anyone for their beliefs and get religious safe mode discussion, we find that the 12 step understanding of God is if God is everywhere, you might be near the big toe and I might be in God's hand.... So our descriptions of God would be different, but I should never try harder to explain my point of view, But that I understand what someone else is expressing, so I can understand more of what is possible, than what not to do Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Fox and Cause,
Since we are all part of the universe and Source (God) created ALL through consciousness, wouldn't you say that we are source? As humans we are part of our parents DNA but as spiritual conscious beings don't we then become an aspect of Source? Source did create all and quantum mechanics is proving that we are all entangled, all part of the WHOLE. We are all part of the universal consciousness.
I don't believe we need to get anywhere as we are already there. I also believe that Jesus was one of the great phophets. He came to enlighten us not to make him a martyr nor a God.
My belief only as I also understand that each of us comes into this existence to lean specific lessons. Sometimes just to experience being human. One's path is just that and not to be messed with unless of course it's their path to change things.
Then there is the free will/determinism points. I believe that we have very little free will and the majority of our lives is determined in advance.
Peace, love and light |
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| Leo, I don't know I am still recovering from the Sunday issue, so I am sort of going to bow out here and apologize I did not get my days of the week right the first time Love and Light |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
Its three hours later there but its still Saturday (the last day of the week) Hope that helps
Blessings
Leo |
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| Hey Leo, It is just that the discussions do not matter if it is to prove who or what is correct! Because my life's goal is not to ascertain who or what is right and wrong. My goal is to help people with what is possible for those who hope to find something better with faith and belief. So I surrender to any argument or discussion and say what benefit does the discussion yeild.... As who will benefit over a Sunday verses Saturday discussion being the Holly day.... and who or what is right.... My intention is to share with those who feel that they are bound by issues of belief in God, and limited because of it.... So we go through thousands of points of light and just pick something arbitrary to dispute.... This can go on endlessly..... Me explaining that there are cases of God's anointed ones from the bible and they did certain spiritual things, but had unconditional love for God and life is what I was trying to share.... So this stems back to the thought of what are we doing in the forum, I have a goal of sharing what is spiritually possible if you can learn to trust your heart, and is it safe to be spiritual..... I still maintain that it does not matter what day of the week that worship our God, and I can still do it 7 days a week..... But your theory of Sunday is superior to mine and I therefore say my bad and you win the argument hands down!!! As I do not want to be right, I just want to help people become deprogrammed from head knowledge / fear if they choose to do so, and learn to trust their hearts and grow to feel comfortable in their own skin... And to not live with fear, but to release negative emotions Love and Light |
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wicc, wicce, wicca
