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Location: Bellingham | I would be interested is anyone that practices wicca that is on this site and would be interested in such a dialog. I have been inspired by a biography of a man that took to defending 'witches' in court. It almost ruined him, but the so called witches survived(most of whom where folk healers. midwives, and other knowledgeable people. The person in question was christian and knighted. The basis for his moral descision was in part a completely different interpritation of the Papal decree that fueled the secular paranoid reaction that the inquisitions' horror. I am christian and very much deplore the violent nature of some of the paranoiac insanity and condomnation(murder) of people that where considered witches. the engish language has given us a difficulty of old english become modern. that difficulty of to my understanding the one of wicc, meaning 'wise one' and a modernization of the term as witch. when considering this issue I came across the basis of what the wicc, and wicca, ment and means. This meaning being wise one wisdom and the religion of the worship of wisdom. some consideation later, the terms felt less like condomnation and more like a consideration that christians should, as thinking christans, perhaps should make. the larger statement being it is perhaps better to worship wisdom than to worship the vaguely wise. The reason for this argument actualy biblical and also has an extention in biblical judaic thought. Read the gospel of John chapter one verse one. or the names of God in kabbalah. the concept is suprisingly there in black and white. My apologies to those whom require red and white. My reiterated point being perhaps God is the sum of all wisdom. To the many that will cry foul as a Christian, and "we defy you" as a wiccan, I say we want both of you. dispite your resentments. please excuse my religious tendancy and an ernest prayer that is modern and written and circulated by christians. "Come wisdom, lord and ruler, root of Jesse, key of David, rising sun, Emanuel, come Lord Jesus." cause
Edited by cause 10/13/2011 7:37 PM
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| Cause I am not Wiccan, but understand you point and feel that who am I to judge another, as Jesus never threw a stone of condemnation, and even the the Archangel Michael would not raise an acquisition against the devil in Jude 1:9 But from a personal experience of being spirit filled, I thought a few years back, that I was supposed to spiritually bind witches of any fashion, till I was starting my first binding, and I got a loud and clear message to leave them alone.... I was pretty naive back then and idealistic.... The 3 wise men or the word that translates for this in the Greek seems to be very close to the translation of sorcerer//// That is from my memory though So my point is I understand what you are sharing here.... I do apologize since this does not address your post, as you specifically asked, but wanted to share my experience and to be helpful Love and Light | |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Well now, I tend to lean towards Neo-Paganism. The majority of Pagans are not committed to a single defined tradition, but understand Paganism as encompassing a wide range of non-institutionalized spirituality, as promoted by the Church of All Worlds, the Feri Tradition and other movements. Notably, Wicca in the United States since the 1970s has largely moved away from its Gardnerian roots and diversified into eclectic variants.
Paganism generally emphasizes the sanctity of the Earth and Nature. Pagans often feel a duty to protect the Earth through activism, and support causes such as rainforest protection, organic farming, permaculture, animal rights and so on. Some Pagans are influenced by Animist traditions of the indigenous Native Americans and Africans and other indigenous or shamanic traditions.
While I neither practice Wicca or Neo-Paganism I find the tennets to be very interesting. A quote from a church and school of Wicca:
"The great thrust of the Craft is that it encourages spiritual development in all people in any way they intuitively feel is right for them. On its social side the Craft teaches connection with nature and the idea that one should progress through harming no one. This then leads us to a very simple definition: a religion that encourages its members to progress in their own way and in their own time to greater spiritual understanding. A Religion of Salvation through Wisdom and Exploration "
In addition; "If it harm none, do what you will."
I. Development
A. Starting in the early nineteenth century, a new natural religion gradually evolved. It gathered momentum in the mid-twentieth century.
B. Many authors and philosophers helped to develop the magical modern religion and to articulate parts of its belief structure.
C. The religion finds its roots in ancient ways. It has psychic connections and sympathy with those who were burnt in the medieval period, and indeed with all individuals who have been oppressed and killed in the name of religion.
D. The recent "festival" movement has enhanced the growth and diversity of the religion.
II. Literature
There is no official text; for the Craft is a religion of life and of nature, not of "the book."
III. Explicit Religious Doctrines
A. God (deity) is immanent and transcendent.
B. Every living entity has a spirit which is connected to and part of every other spirit. Humans are a part of nature.
C. Divinity manifests itself through all living beings. Nature itself is divine (but not something to directly "worship") as is the Cosmos as is each person.
D. God and goddess images are recognized as aspects of a greater divinity that is unknowable.
IV. Ritual and Worship
A. Observances may be group or solitary. Regular worship services are scheduled in harmony with the moon's phases by groups (covens or congregations) of members.
B. Each worship site is constructed anew on each occasion of meeting. It is defined by new consecrated circles, and may be located anywhere.
C. Only coven members are allowed to enter the innermost circle.
I find this to be spiritual and much of it I intuitively feel is right.
Blessings
Leo
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Location: Bellingham | foxfires, In my thought you very much have address my thought. To the Ideal everyone should come to Christ's table. (and yes to all wicce out there I mean conversion). the thought of the three magi(wise one/mage) coming to worship the child Jesus exemplifies the act of a mage(or witch) coming to christ. Just as modern Christian rhetoric describes. I am not sure what you mean by "binding" witches refers to. I would state that comments like sealed in Christ or the title 'slave of God' are not derogitory, but indicate a passionate relationship with christ. this is not directly to my intended conversation. part of what I am attempting to communicate is simply a difficulty of language as well as some needed compassion/reconcilliation. The direct question I asked is not of these statements, but are quite valid. There are spiritual practices in the world that are unhealthy. Perhaps however we lack the common language to discuss them. And, finding practices such practices is not anathma to me and perhaps healthy to know of. I seek a common language as well as learning of practices. I rarely bring this to the forefront of conversation. But, I do believe it can be healthy, If to my understanding (I know we may disagree) the practice is not. please excuse my poor spelling cause errata By practice I do not intent to condem the entire practice of wicca(or spiritual practice) but an individual practice that may be unhealthy.
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 6:58 PM
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Location: Bellingham | leo, I generaly reject idolitry, and any pantheon as a object of worship. I will comment briefly. as I am afraid I am under a time restaint I I know the modern for of wicca is considered 'new' but you may be surrprised to know that some ancient practices have been found within recent memory. These practices where disclosed in Wales/G.B. II there is an oral tradition to these practices and monuments are of course kept. III modern wicca is exactly that modern. I know little of the present practices. The name wicca is derived from the word 'Wise'. and there are likely many forms of wisdom that people accept. IV sunday, worship in tents, initiation, all these things are spectacularly simmilar. The form of the an Idea of wisdom is an english simmilarity. It is unfortunate that a polemic of disregard has risen between the two parties. no-one need reject a person because the other rejects their beliefs unless unreasonable emnity come between them. As you have stated you "(you believe in what) intuitively feel is right" this is a statement of morality and desernment. I feel neither difficulty nor defiance to any authority inaccepting these statements. I simply move towards them in a different way. sometimes love is all that matters whether Lenny Kravitz or Goethe is making the statment. I know little of paganism. I will not reject you because of your belief in it. The space I am comming from is one of intolerance (an encounter with harsh dogma of a closed sociaty that likes not me). I attempt to be serene. right now, you, because you do not reject me seem much more Christian(or christlike) then some of those whom call themselves so. I can mearly call them errent, and continue with my day. light, cause
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 6:39 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | WICCE is the female and WICCA is the male in the Wiccan belief. fyi | |
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| Cause, As far as the binding see Matthew 16:19
And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So again it is intention and the strength of belief that we can manifest, Remember Jesus was quoted as saying in Matthew 18:6 But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Sort of when people do things that are unkind for no reason. Understanding these two scriptures together is how people are able to do healing and bindings, but it does not seem that any person can just sit down and perform a binding or a healing, there seems to need to be a commitment to selfless acts before the energy can flow In Numbers 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto you, that you have smitten me these three times? :29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. :30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. :31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face :32 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why have you struck your donkey these three times? behold, I went out to withstand you, because your way is perverse before me :33 And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain you, and saved her alive. The point of the story of Balaam and the story is he had the power to curse Israel, but did not seem to check in with the spirit of God before he was on his way to curse them.... So if we have the power and abuse it, there is a high price to pay, and we do not have to always be in the will of the highest good or that of God, as once the power is given to a person.... As the bible says once anointed always annointed..... Read up on King David and King Psaul before David was a King.... And David would not touch a hair from Psaul's head.... But also notice Psalm 106:23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.... So using the energy properly or improperly can cost you your life, sure could have for Moses, as he stood before God and risked all to save Israel.... But another thing to also note is the energy may not come directly from God, as how could Moses stand in opposition to God if God were the source..... Directly the source for his energy.... There are a few stories in Genesis where people did things to cause change in births of people and animals, and the mandrake root was used for fertility... by what appeared to be God's chosen people.... I think that Jeremiah used wood to make an Iron Axe float... Casting straws or lots is also an approved method of deciding who does what, or to divide spoils..... Now depending on how you tell the story and who was involved, it is considered Godly or witchcraft..... by the people watching..... So from my interpretation it boils down to John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends, Are we willing to give our life to help a friend or better yet a stranger.... In the story of Balaam, he was to be paid to curse someone..... And God had plans for them as this was Israel.... The desire to help people get past judging others and saying they are wrong, is as simple as doing it, and taking it up in the spirit world, and following gut intuition. There is a large string attached to our neck in the spirit world, and it is our kundalini energy that a Cherubim can descend on us in short order if we do have the power and tell us where we are wrong.... This is no small matter to piss off this energy LOL But with Wiccans I found they are generally 3 times more reserved than most Christians, and forgive and lets much more slide before they go balistic.... So is Christianity doing what a preacher tell people to do, or is it finding God in our heart and feeling the energy, and being willing to die to help a friend..... Many who indicate they are Christian have little patience for other people and make rules that they can not even follow.... But if you have ever tried to upset a witch, they do not get upset, they get sad and sorrowful for how they feel inside.... As a general note/// But be careful as they can only hold their emotions back so long before they deploy them..... And then claiming you are a Christian might not work quite as well as you desire LOL I sort of feel that when the bible talks about entertaining stranger and angels and entertain them unawaredly.... that when a person is torn or rent in the spirit and we can not see this and are rude to these people, there is sort of a glaze put on the people who are unkind or uncaring to them.... To explain this better if a person is in serious need of help and begs in prayer for God to help, there is karmic introduction to the power, and people who are kind at that moment and heed the call open the high power connection circuits to both heaven and earth, and sort of get a power assist from heaven and earth.... But people who are unkind to them, sort of get shut in to the power and get glazed over..... So to live with honor of what we feel and to rather die than bring a moment of hardship to those who are hurting is what Wiccans seem to do, and I can not stand against them as they posture their-self to protect what they love.... But the only thing we can change is the way we feel about people and things on the physical plane.... Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/14/2011 11:15 AM
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| Hey Cause, I understand that there are different approaches to finding the connection to the divine and what I call God.... And the apostles of the New Testament seemed to make this connection, and have the ability to do this, but because of Anias and Saphira and their death, others were afraid to join them, so the power seems to have have been lost.... Or the continuity of this power, as not too many have been doing this since. In Job 12:7-10 (KJV) We find:
But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee: Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee. Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
And I ask the question of when is the last time you had someone from a Christian church indicate to the earth shall teach you and try to feel what it has to tell us.... So this seems to be how to become feeling of what is around us,,,, If we try our best to figure out what is going on, we realize the earth does not exactly have an English translator to tell us straight up, so there is something to realize here.... So the question of praying to an idol is raised, and rightly so, as this is what the problem was, the Golden Calf did not have the answers to what they were seeking and if they got to the point where they felt this was the answer to all of their problems, they had more conceptual problems, and God was addressing this.... So no Idolatry does not help as far as I can tell.... But this goes back to intent and only God can judge a heart and we seem to get jealous when others are closer to what looks like God's approval.... Like the issue of Cain spilling Abel's blood because God seemed to approve of his offering more. So Cain had a problem with God, and took it out on his brother, and we became our brothers keeper by the excuse Cain laid out to God, kinda cool the way that works, we sort of get to eat our words there LOL But what one person defines as prayer another may define as meditation or seeking the answer from God through the Holly Spirit In Revelations 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.... I see there are 4 angels present and I know where they are and I ADDRESS them daily, and ask if I am in the will of God to assist me, and if I am out of the will of God, to shut me down, and I will do my best to not complain when thing play out at God's speed, and if I need to stop a behavior or action.... So I do not pray to them as angels..... But to the point of Genesis 18:2....three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: Abraham bowed called LORD and prayed to three men before he feed them.... But these guys were apparently angels in human form.... Abraham felt this to be true, but the dudes at Sodom did not feel the same thing from these dudes..... So again it is perception as far as I can tell when it comes to what is wright and wrong,,,, and God know where we are... As this is a past tense account accepted by many as the truth through the Holly Scriptures.... But what is Holly, seeking the divine even if it is not in our best interest in every case, IS that not what the entire bible an explanation of? The bible does have this really cool loophole of "Judge not, least ye be judged" Hey Just my ramblings and musings!!!
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| leo - 10/13/2011 7:05 PM ..... IV. Ritual and Worship A. Observances may be group or solitary. Regular worship services are scheduled in harmony with the moon's phases by groups (covens or congregations) of members. B. Each worship site is constructed anew on each occasion of meeting. It is defined by new consecrated circles, and may be located anywhere. C. Only coven members are allowed to enter the innermost circle. Yes, Leo I agree that Christians do celebrate by Moon and Earth phases.... Easter is found year by the following formula: The first Sunday after the the first full Moon after Spring Equinox, or just look it up on a calander... The inner circles are called, I think, most of them, are anyway.... Deacons But strangely enough Sunday is the first day of the week, and Saturday is the seventh day of the week.... Love and Light | |
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| Hey There, I find that people who have anger and can not release it are more spiritual than meets the eye, in fact people at 12 step programs have felt the strong energy of emotions and have trouble releasing it.... But the point of discernment I feel is the emotional push when different people speak at these events.... Anyone can attend.... I have found that if I close my eyes I can feel where people are and some of the emotions they feel, they sort of flow thru me while they speak..... The 12 step program indicates that we need to let go of past anger that we have for everyone before we can get on the spiritual superhighway..... People in the Reiki and world use the phrase release things no longer beneficial and the 4 year energy school like Barbra Brennen's indicated when we are forgiving and being forgiven,,,, forgiving our self, we need to ask for our missing soul pieces back from those we harbored anger toward.. But the really cool thing about about the 12 step literature approach to peace with world, self, and God is Every major religion decided to adopt what was there for people to find happiness, (Wonder how many were thinking huh "hopeless addict that I would otherwise have to help clean up after their mess" but all kidding aside the 12 step literature was passed around as religiously neutral and spiritually based as what do we all agree that can just help people find the God of their understanding..... So from adversity of addiction comes the one document that every religion agrees upon..... Huh I can say something positive comes from the addiction process, Religion can finally agree on a unified text.... No other cause that I know of has done this, I would gladly have spent 2 lifetimes in full on addiction just to get religious leaders to agree on some points, as we have to give God something to use to get our attention. The steps are keenly based on seeking the will of God daily for our lives, and it does not matter what define God to be, just a higher power, and for it to show us it's will on a daily basis..... I think they describe God as a male, but I do not need to know God's gender, as it does not really matter or change the truth of what God is or is not, also I do not want to be presumptuous Love and Light | |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | we are told that the women came to the tomb on the morning of the first day of the week (Mark 16:2), which was Sunday, and found that Jesus was risen. Much later Christians adopted Sunday as their Sabbath, in honor of the resurrection. That is why we now have a 2 day weekend, with the week ending right in the middle of it. Of course the Jewish Sabbath is on the seventh day of the week which is Saturday.
This as usual doesn't hold true across the board. Many calendars start with Monday and others with Saturday. Its all very complicated, anyone interested in the various ways in which calendars are created can check out;
http://astro.nmsu.edu/~lhuber/leaphist.html
Leo
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Location: Bellingham | Leo, It is my understanding that wicc is the personage that claims the title Witch, wicce the wisdom in question, and wicca the religion in question. I have I believe mentioned this before. the male and female aspects of these groups easily represented as wisdom of the sexes and there archetypes. some modern witch-craft has embraced other beliefs that represent the deity. the representation is not completely surprising to me. This is however the The forum of an unknown as we have no representitve of this movement. | |
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Location: Bellingham | settle down everybody, I did not intend to question anyone's bible scolarship. I honestly haven't read all the comments yet. Hovever, I have yet to read an item that speaks directly to the issue I posted. I will read them more fully and then comment. | |
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| Dear Leo, I guess I got in wrong with the whole seventh day and God rested during the creation, and remember the sabbath day and keep it Holly, and the Sabbatical at 7 Years and to take a fallow period on the land and the Jubilee every 49 years and all debts are forgiven.... But I for some strange reason thought that Saturday was the last day of the week, and Sunday was the first day of the week, and it does not really matter what others think and we are supposed to do what we know to be right. But the point is Christians and other religions typically used the first day of the week and some opt for the Saturday day of worship, and Blue law enforcement.... As far as I know being a Christian is a feeling in our heart, and it is accepting the scripture John 3:16, by most standards. So if someone were to ask you how to become a Christian, you would sort of use this scripture to get them there.... But remember Jesus said I have sheep that are not of this fold, and when he was surrendering his life on the cross he also indicated that the man being crucified with him would also be in paradise with him. He did not get to read these scripture or get baptized, but a change of heart took place and as one man wanted to be spared by the powers of a deity incarnate and get them down from the cross, and the other said leave him be, he is righteous and just.... And then Jesus saw the inner conversion and someone placing the value of another higher than their own self and being willing to surrender to death peacefully for another's sake..... As far as I know that is the true definition of a Christian.... Love and Light | |
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| Cause, I will hold off on more comments till you get a chance to ketchup, I was just having some fun LOL, Sorry Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | Vaguaries, red herring, and straw dogs, gentilemen. I may not as, one of you said, going to be any more likely to speak to a practitioner of wicca because I am christian, but pay attention to those appealing to higher authority, and do so yourselves. sometimes oblique references are not enough to bury an issue. My statement, put bluntly, is do you feel that the worship of wisdom is a valid and acceptible practice. I ask in the context of The Christian and Judaic as well as it exists metaphysically(philosophically). It follows in course that we touch on the theological. But, to be direct in these things is my aim, please see it so. cause
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 7:34 PM
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Location: Bellingham | I did confuse two of you(foxfires and leo) please excuse. In a thread of my clarification I have been unclear.
Edited by cause 10/14/2011 7:45 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Fox,
I believe if you reread what I stated it is just what you said. I simply added a little Biblical scripture to show it. In the days of Jesus (being a Jew) the Sabbith was on Saturday. Thats when God rested. So it must have been on Sunday when: And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Is it coincidental that it was on a "SUN"day? | |
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| Leo, I am soo busted her, you are right the first day is important!!!! as it has a sun in it, wow how did I miss that.... Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | Today is still friday and I am awaiting the fish I have in the oven. sometimes creature comforts are desireable. desireable wether you consider them false rubrics or anacronisms. I see that this friday they are good to eat, false rubric or not. My hope in writing this thread is hope for a group that will not need to give up an identity. What we cannot now may come later. the Idea of G_d came for most people before our meeting him. I feel lucky to have a small part of his blessing. Peace be with you, cause | |
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| Hey Cause, In John 10:34, I find the following / Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? So how can we be god's if we are Christians and believe that Jesus is the way to God? Could it be that God can be found inside of us? So could it be said that the way to God is through the way we look at god / God? And the whole perception of God as being the way we get there? If we are not to condemn anyone for their beliefs and get religious safe mode discussion, we find that the 12 step understanding of God is if God is everywhere, you might be near the big toe and I might be in God's hand.... So our descriptions of God would be different, but I should never try harder to explain my point of view, But that I understand what someone else is expressing, so I can understand more of what is possible, than what not to do Love and Light | |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Fox and Cause,
Since we are all part of the universe and Source (God) created ALL through consciousness, wouldn't you say that we are source? As humans we are part of our parents DNA but as spiritual conscious beings don't we then become an aspect of Source? Source did create all and quantum mechanics is proving that we are all entangled, all part of the WHOLE. We are all part of the universal consciousness.
I don't believe we need to get anywhere as we are already there. I also believe that Jesus was one of the great phophets. He came to enlighten us not to make him a martyr nor a God.
My belief only as I also understand that each of us comes into this existence to lean specific lessons. Sometimes just to experience being human. One's path is just that and not to be messed with unless of course it's their path to change things.
Then there is the free will/determinism points. I believe that we have very little free will and the majority of our lives is determined in advance.
Peace, love and light | |
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| Leo, I don't know I am still recovering from the Sunday issue, so I am sort of going to bow out here and apologize I did not get my days of the week right the first time Love and Light | |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | FF,
Its three hours later there but its still Saturday (the last day of the week) Hope that helps
Blessings
Leo | |
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| Hey Leo, It is just that the discussions do not matter if it is to prove who or what is correct! Because my life's goal is not to ascertain who or what is right and wrong. My goal is to help people with what is possible for those who hope to find something better with faith and belief. So I surrender to any argument or discussion and say what benefit does the discussion yeild.... As who will benefit over a Sunday verses Saturday discussion being the Holly day.... and who or what is right.... My intention is to share with those who feel that they are bound by issues of belief in God, and limited because of it.... So we go through thousands of points of light and just pick something arbitrary to dispute.... This can go on endlessly..... Me explaining that there are cases of God's anointed ones from the bible and they did certain spiritual things, but had unconditional love for God and life is what I was trying to share.... So this stems back to the thought of what are we doing in the forum, I have a goal of sharing what is spiritually possible if you can learn to trust your heart, and is it safe to be spiritual..... I still maintain that it does not matter what day of the week that worship our God, and I can still do it 7 days a week..... But your theory of Sunday is superior to mine and I therefore say my bad and you win the argument hands down!!! As I do not want to be right, I just want to help people become deprogrammed from head knowledge / fear if they choose to do so, and learn to trust their hearts and grow to feel comfortable in their own skin... And to not live with fear, but to release negative emotions Love and Light | |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Really wasn't ment to be arguementative as the last day of the week is neither here nor there. Not about right or wrong, just having a little fun. No harm intended. I too am all for being more spiritually intune and reall want many others to be so as well. Its all about perspective I believe we both know someone who can fill us in on perception.
You are correct about many anointed ones that have been here in the past and some continue even today. It is of course sad that so many live day to day in their heads and forget about Heart centered feelings. If we look into our lives we will see clearly how many unimportant tasks, so called "responsibilities" accumlate to fill them up. One master compares them to "housekeeping in a dream". We tell ourselves that we want to spend time on the important things in life, but there never seems to be enough time. Our lives seem to live us.
In my current study of death and dying it has become clear that whatever we have done with our lives makes us what we are when we die. And everything, absolutely everything, counts.
The Buddha said;
This existence of ours is as transient as autumn clouds.
To watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at
the movements of a dance.
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky.
Rushing by, like a torrent down a steep mountain.
Namaste
Leo | |
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| Leo, But an important discussion was basically side tracked, and the question still remains despite other discussions can I safely ask a question, if so was Jesus a deity, and if I can safely ask a secondary question are we also to become or becoming deity in form.... So to further expound,,, is any part of that true, please note you did indicate Jesus was a profit, and you did not dispute that Jesus indicated that Ye are god's.... So with this in mind please proceed!!! Now, lets see if some fur flies Love and Light | |
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Was Jesus a prophet? Yes I believe he was and is.
Prophet, from the Greek word ???????? profitis meaning "foreteller", is an individual who is claimed to have been contacted by the supernatural or the divine, and serves as an intermediary with humanity, delivering this newfound knowledge from the supernatural entity to other people. The message that the prophet conveys is called a prophecy.
To take this another step forward the above assumes that there is a supernatural entity (God). I propose that this so called supernatural entity is not an entity at all but an unbelievably powerful life force that I like to call Source. This life force permeates the entire universe with consciousness. We humans unkowningly tap into the life force through consciousness. By this I don't mean that we are conscious of what or where we are or that we think therefore we exist, no its a "non-local" consciousness. I believe that Seth said it best:
As Seth states in Seth Speaks (1972) Jane Roberts “Consciousness is an attribute of the soul, a tool that can be turned in many directions. You are not your consciousness. It is something that belongs to you and to the soul. You are learning to use it. To the extent that you utilize the various aspects of consciousness, you will learn to understand your own reality; and the conscious self will truly become conscious. If you believe that your consciousness is locked up somewhere inside your skull and is powerless to escape it, if you feel that your consciousness ends at the boundary of your body, then you sell yourself short, and you will think that I am a delusion."
So the question of diety arises; Do I think there are god's and goddess's, absolutely. They are more in tune with consciousness and therefore vibrate at a greater rate and as you know some have been amoung us and others have not. It is my understanding that the more we are in tune with consciousness the greater is our vibratory level and consequently the great the vibration the greater is our place in the universe.
Was or is Jesus a diety? Now you have my back to the proverbial wall, in the sense that we are all co-creators and if one thinks of Source as a diety then yes however, if we look at the definition of a diety (A deity is a recognized preternatural or supernatural immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god.) In that sense then I'd have to say no.
Is the fur standing up on your neck yet???
With much love and light
Leo | |
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| leo - 10/15/2011 7:46 PM FF, Was Jesus a prophet? Yes I believe he was and is. Prophet...... Do I think there are god's and goddess's, absolutely. ...... Was or is Jesus a Diety?..... of Source as a diety then yes however, if we look at the definition of a diety... With much love and light Leo So there were god's and goddess's by what you indicate, Ok, This is a side issue just arising You also assert Jesus was both a Prophet and a Deity per you understanding But when Jesus said Ye are god's, what did that mean? Or is this true? Love and light | |
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I think that Jesus was speaking in the vernacular of the times. People were aware of gods however if he had said "ye are spirits of consciousness" it may have lost something in the translation.
As far as gods and goddess's are concerned ( in the process of establishing creation) Source created them in order to lend a hand (so to speak).
Actually I said that Jesus was a great prophet and as far as a diety is concerned I don't think so. Based on the description of a diety, it would infer that a diety is a supernatural entity. I don't thik that Source is an entity at all. Source is a powerful force of nature not a diety as the description of a diety would have us believe.
It's truly semantics in a way.
Namaste
Leo
Actually the information about gods and goddess's came from a reliable non-physical entity of whom you know.
Edited by leo 10/15/2011 9:58 PM
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| Hey Leo, Thanks for taking to time to address the questions that I posed!!! Yeah it is an issue to take to heart! I went through the decision process carefully, it looks like you have carefully considered this too. I sort of think I have slightly different conclusions and feelings.... Love and Light | |
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You're welcome. I always enjoy a good debate as long as no one gets pushy. I have come to the conclusion that we are all here in the physical reality learning lab to learn something specific. We are here to follow our paths as we are directed. I would open another discussion (perhaps) and state that we really are led to where it is we need to be. Regardless of what we think, there is little free will. Sure if you want to do minor things like what color shirt you'll wear or do I want soy milk or almond milk. How many times have we heard about people missing flights that later crash or I'm glad I decided to drive through town instead of taking the freeway as there was a terrible crash just as I would have been there. Coincidence or being taken care of by our guides or angels? My favorite substantiating evidence is in the Near death experience where many have been told that they'll have to go back as they haven't yet completed their experience.
You certainly have some different conclusions and feelings and that is a really good thing. Perhaps shared knowledge can help someone who is seeking. It is always good to agree to disagree. The bottom line is that we will experience what it is we are supposed to experience either in this human experience or in the next.. As I was told many times by my non-physical mentor, everything happens for a reason there is no such thing as chance or luck.
Blessings
Love and Light on your Path
Leo
Edited by leo 10/16/2011 1:29 PM
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| Leo, Agreed, but for the record I do not say what is true or untrue from a popular sense, I like to hinge on what is possible for the future.... And this seems to take a mindset change for most.... So I do not feel anyone is right or wrong, I sort of tend to think in terms of what applies to me.... If someone poses a problem asking for input, I share the best advice I feel that will help, but it is what I feel from inside as truth, As I have problems with many teachers and they way they do a few things.... But it is not for me to correct them, just to do my best to not mess up what they are doing.... As they do are doing the best they know how, or what seems right at the time.... And I like the every religion and spirituality approved prayer of God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.... The only thing I can change is me and the way I feel about what someone else is doing.... I can also geographically vote, and that is stay away from things that feel are not in my best interest But again we are back to the reason for this thread in this forum and it is about accepting others who are beyond most peoples understanding.... So I do not have to like or love someone to help them, but as a human to allow someone to go through a kangaroo court inquisition in the name of religion that they also believe to be true is what this thread is all about..... So how well do people go through their own personal emotions and realize from inside when they get upset as to what is them, and their own perception or are they doing God's job because he is busy and rationing out judgment as God has given them the assignment to do his work as he is too busy.... These people who do the Inquisition seem to forget the story of the prodigal son who asked for his inheritance TO GO PARTY WITH..... More or less true so please just roll with it... but the father said yes and did it and then when the son came back just hoping to work in the barn and eat the food for the animals, the dad said brig a Ring and a Robe..... Huh slightly different approach than the inquisition..... Both had the same God or you would think so, but the way they were about their own emotions was different.... How can I love you if I hate everything I see and do as it reminds me of a past failure and future pain of it happening again.... Why do you think in Jude when Miachel was staring down on the devil he did not accuse him, and only said in the name of the Lord.... If he accused him Miachel just might not win (Sheer speculation but I need some liberty here to express some thing where it sink in and I am borrowing this expression, not that it means any truth but as a perspective to see this differently) as battles are won on the spiritual plane by what we believe, and how we deploy our emotions upon the ethereal plane.... Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/16/2011 2:53 PM
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| Leo, Start a new thread on Near death experiences and sort of slowly let it evolve, if I may advise.... Every thread that I have done that I covered most of the facts I felt, fairly well in my first post, did not do so well.... As this forum seems to be designed to help people who are looking for answers, not so much for the person who knows the subject thoroughly to expound more.... Love and Light | |
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I agree that there are seekers who look for answers and a few who like to share experiences. My post on death and dying is mostly an experiment to see if some actually even think of the subject. In my current reading I find that most western thought tends to ignore it, however in eastern thought it seems to be more accepted.
Perhaps a near death thread would be an interesting topic. Maybe there are some who have experienced it. | |
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| Leo, So are you going to start another thread? | |
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| I've only skimmed through the thread because I am short on time. Has it been mentioned that all Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccans? I think it's an important aspect of the Craft of the Wise. Witchcraft is as old as time, Wicca- as stated in another post, is not.
Blessings,
D~ | |
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| Hey All, I know a lady who goes to church every week and practices reiki and is a reiki master.... She cures disease and helps people with physical alments.... When people are up front and the church leaders lay hands on people and pray for them, she sends in the reiki energy for their healing.... She also runs around and catches and helps little old ladies get to their bible study class and catches them when they slip.... She has been truthful with her mother about what she does, and her mom knows what she does works, as she also sees into people and gets insight and is able to tell them as an psychic..... But her mom tells her she is a witch.... Ever tried to win an argument with your mom, yeah the ones the bible tells us to honor.... our parents..... So she agrees with her mom and goes to church too, so not to detract from the point or create a splinter, but is this sort of an introduction of what we call as a definition of things we closest understand it to be.... So if this was church sanctioned action, this would be defined as one thing miracle and future Saint material, but since she is an sort of outsider and the people are not ready to accept that everyone is capable of healing, it is considered on the other end of the spectrum, so is this spirituality in the closet or witchcraft.... Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | Disa, I was when I started this post I was asking about Wicca. because, the thought of worshiping wisdom seems more formal there. I hadn't seen another thread on the subject. I am going to search for it. cause
Edited by cause 10/17/2011 2:04 PM
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My question is, is it ok for, lets say Benny Hinn, to perform these healings, which is questionable at best or a lay person who can actually do Reiki? My nonphysical spiritual mentor informed me that we all have power beyond our wildest dreams. Many heal through a myriad of methods but is this witchcraft or our use of the power that we have to help one another. As I have previously stated, the power of the universal natural energy force is vastly powerful. Tapping into this power is what gives us the ability to help others(and ourselves). It is another of those semantic issues where "witchcraft" has a negative connotation, whereas "spiritual" is a more accepted positive term, used in a religious way.
I believe it is the church's way to control the "flock". They really can't allow folks to think that they have more power than the church. That is precisely why so many parished in the inquisition. The interesting thing is that the church distanced itself from the killing by turning heretics over to secular authorities. The Senate in Venice in 1521 refused to approve such killing and Pope Leo X wrote that they could not appeal or change any ecclesiastical judgements. He thretened them with "censure and other appropriate measures." That of course was a extreme during that period. Now they simply excommunicate you.
It is as you say "spirituality in the closet".
Light and Love
Leo
Edited by leo 10/17/2011 2:45 PM
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Location: California, USA | I am a witch but do not follow Wicca. I've been away from the board for a time and also skimmed... | |
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| Leo, It goes back to intentions and what can be gained from something.... I do not generally like to indicate the names of who did what wrong, as this seems to be something of a negative tally sheet that I do not want to become responsible for as this seems like an acquisition or me holing someone else responsible for what they did wrong.... If I knew every wrong thing others did and what is right and wrong then I am an instrument of the law.... The greatest commandment is love, sort of indicates I need to find something to like about them and focus upon till I can feel kindness and acceptance, when I think of them and accept and find what they have done that puts a smile on my face.... How can I love church folks if I don't spend time with them and smile and be nice and have nothing to accuse them of.... So from their own doctrine can you show them where the light is found.... I do not mean telling them what not to do.... Because none is perfect and human too at the same time.... IT goes with the territory.... If we have resentmentment we have fear and strong emotions and reasons we are not at peace with life.... Do we need to tell where others are wrong from our perception.... What if we are wrong about every thought and Idea we have ever had.... Maybe it is is as simple as following the love in our heart and accepting the good we can find in everything. I am no one to say another is wrong for any action.... So if you ask are they wrong, am I wrong, I might ask you how does the question of who is wrong make you feel..... If you ask for help with a problem this means you want help, and declare a willingness to try to find something in what I explain to help with the problem... So I give no criticism here, or do not intend to do this, and if so my bad.... But offer help to someone who desire resolution to a problem or emotions, to the best of my ability, or say you are above my pay grade and need a better /different healer.... As to your question I am not a judge or to indicate who is right or wrong, this does not concern me as to who can heal or should heal.... Why do we always go back to discussions of who is doing what right and wrong? Could you stop this action? If so, should you stop this? By what power and cost would you sacrifice to stop this if you could? Love and Light | |
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| Leo, Here is what Paul did and read this carefully and draw your own conclusions... but notice every detail of this before you draw any conclusions! So realize exactly what is going on before you go to a decision about the implications of this Acts 16:16-18 (KJV) 16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. Love and Light | |
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| soulfire - 10/17/2011 3:25 PM
I am a witch but do not follow Wicca. I've been away from the board for a time and also skimmed...
Glad to see you here again, Soulfire. I think you are making my point  My understanding is that Witchcraft is a practice, Wicca is a religion. I do know people who are Catholic Witches and also Christian Witches- they label themselves as such. I choose not to subscribe to any religion, do not label myself as anything other than spiritual, and to practice what works for me. I appreciate and quite enjoy anyone else's perspective and right to practice what works for them.
As far as the who is right/who is wrong debate- I don't really see why that's ever an issue- people choose what is right for them. Those of us who do not subscribe to the biblical concepts as ultimate truth have a difficult time with it . I, personally am not as well-versed in the Bible as many of you are- but to me it is just another religious book to study and learn about. Because it is not the foundation for my being, much of what is discussed as Biblical Truth does not resonate with me. I think God is bigger than religion and cannot be confined to one book. I think the ultimate truth is bigger than the Bible- so any discussion of what is right as ultimate truth based only in the Bible makes no sense to me.
I do enjoy all of your discussion about the topic, I will read each and every word. A lot of it seems to go in circles, though. I'm not looking to debate, or to be explained anything further in order that I may see the light. I've been round that bend many, many times before and am not interested in revisiting it. Just thought I'd put a few of my thoughts out there
Edited by Disa 10/17/2011 4:37 PM
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Hello Disa and good to see you here again Soulfire,
I couldn't agree with you more about the bibical concepts. While I am one who also does not subscribe to the edict's and ultimatum's associated with the bible, I feel that it is important for each soul to find his/her own way. I, like you feel that there really isn't any one book that could possibly be the total truth. The Truth is by far greater than anything we humans could begin to understand. We are simply not equipped to know the Truth. As the bible tells us "And Ye shall know the truth and the truth will make you free" (John 8:32) however the bibical truth doesn't resonate with me either.
We each find our paths and are led in the direction that appears as right in our heart.
Thanks for the info on witch's, Wicca and Witchcraft.
Blessings
Leo | |
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| I've finally read through the entire thread and there is so much I could comment on, but it's difficult to do so after the fact with the "quoting" and such. One thing that struck me above- and I cannot now remember who said it or exactly which post it was in, but something to the effect of different people having different terms for the word "prayer"... and it brought to mind that prayer is focused intent, much the same as a spell is-just focused intent.
My thought about working with energy is that when you are working with the forces of nature, your intent is likely to manifest, for the greater good of all- and it harm none. When working against the forces of nature, that's when the possiblity for trouble arises. We may pray, cast, attempt to manifest all day long, but if it is not meant to be, it will not be.
As far as the worshiping of dieties- I'm not really into that, but when defining the term God- if including the feminine and masculine aspects which balance the "source" then I feel those two,( God and Goddess) are separate aspects of the same thing. To me, it all leads back to the "source" as Leo explained it. I'm more along that wavelength. "Worshiping" in general is a term I have trouble with- choosing rather to respect the changing of the seasons, acknowledge the force that causes these things, and give thanks for my ability to witness such miraculous occurences.
We've all got differing views, many of them lead to the same thing. To my knowledge, Christianity and paganism have too much that divides them, Reincarnation, karma, the after life. While Christianity focuses on Heaven and Hell and what leads to those "place"s, my understanding is that Wiccans and a majority of witches and/or pagans don't really believe in those concepts, therefore they are not something we (non christians) are motivated by.
Hopefully soulfire will correct me where I have misunderstood, and add to aspects that could be expanded upon.
But once again, I am not Wiccan- have studied some witchcraft, and identify more with paganism than Christianity. Cause your initial post is directed at those who practice Wicca- I'm guessing they study more within their own covens and don't branch out too much into the realm of metaphysics, but then again- I could be wrong.
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| Hey All, It was my intent when I decided to commit to commenting on this thread was to assist in the understanding of what the bible presents and how it reads.... The reason for they way I explain the things the way I do is to present what is possible through hope. But to have hope I feel it is important to not feel, think or say negative emotions about others. So it does not matter what I think or say to another from the stance of trying to change others. People will find their inner beauty and strength if the decide to look for it. So in an attempt to explain what I know of what is explained in the bible, I added scriptures for certain points to ponder.... At one point I mentioned a binding, and one person posted they were unfamiliar with people who did witchcraft and how they did bindings..... I went on to explain where it was explained in the bible..... So it seemed like there were many who did not understand this was in the bible.... So I explained as much as I felt the audience could absorb in this overlap area of spiritual issues from an alternate source.... People seem to have a perception that the bible has to be either right or wrong.... I loaded the perception that it could be correct and everything else that I have also read could be right too.... So how could this all be true, the way we perceive truth might be bent real bad.... As others have told us how to process and what is right and wrong for way too long.... So again, I share that, what if we are supposed to believe some things to get us by until we can deeper understand the truth. Even UMS studies indicate that there is a dark night of the soul, and some entities are stuck in misery,,,, So who is going to name the place where they are.... And things are similar, so often from religion to spiritual materials that it is uncanny.... That should be a major clue that we are looking at the cause and effects with blinders on.... And from a religious point of view the first problem in heaven seemed to be the bright morning star (Lucifer) refusing to bow before what appears to be man.... So who would follow down this path of dissension and cause more separations and divisions in the ones who love God.... I want nothing to do with telling people they are right or wrong.... I want to help people find the light inside of their own existence.... The rest is above my pay grade.... Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | I have met wiccans whom regularly attend Christian gatherings and sunday services. They likely don't tell others from there congragation. That is very much their busness. When we are speaking about witches we encounter people that where able to be of assisstance or hinderance because of their knowledge of any number of subjects. the initiation is likely one of the oldest in many lands. I will leave that to others for now for the reason that many of you are likely more knowledgable (teaching someone of there own beliefs is likely to fall on deaf ears if not toward a silent derision). I went with wicca as a subject because of part of my ethinic background and the thought of wisdom as vennerated or worshiped as a part of a wiccan practice. If I am mistaken or not I think deifing wisdom something as a philosophy of religion and special metaphysics is interesting and worthy of thought and discussion. obscure Bible references are theology. I am afraid that I am a person who is looking for the central issues of metaphysics. And, in this case the philosophy of a religion that deifies wisdom. I have my Biblical input to give as well. I will say now that even if not proven now to Christianity the argument and search are being made. The prayer I mentioned is modern and expresses wisdom as " . . .lord and ruler. . ." that should be enough for someone whom is expressively and strictly Christ-centered to the exclusion of all else to take notice of. When needy, wisdom provides. when lost, wisdom shows a path. When there is strife, wisdom works toward peace. When wisdom knocks, do you open the door a crack? When wisdom is upon us are the foolish the only opposition? I express this because I wish to discuss it. I am particularly emotive, please forgive. I will find a calm space within. disa, I understand the attraction to paganism. to be free and excited, living with yourself and feeling no need to explain yourself. It feels good. I find that eventualy it is unfulfiling. many pagans go back to other religion as they become older. I have memories of dancing around a bonfire to the forefront of my mind. I have no real shame in doing this. I have no knowledge of a thou shalt not dance around a fire. in one of Goethe's more famous plays the wizzard and his intended partner rush together on the pire. Goethe's answer for this and the reason they are not dammed is simply 'lieb' (love) cause | |
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| Hey Cause, I am at a loss to understand if someone expresses a desire to be left alone about a subject like conversion, whey descend and deploy hard sell techniques,,, it seems this is more reason that religion is shunned by as people run from the religion dogma pushers. I have looked at the plan of salvation as laid out in the bible and as humans have interpreted it... Where does it indicate that people are supposed to bend or break over the free will of another's to accept what believe.... If this action is any unsolicited behavior, is this not forceful conversion, or an attempt to set the world right by personal perspective.... I watched the movie Passion of the Christ and it was supposed to gory and heart breaking.... Well I was not in the least bit upset or moved by what was portrayed.... But when I watched Schindlers list I was not right for a few days with grief and felt a broken heart So am I uncaring, about Jesus' plight.... Huh lets look at this a full blown Deity in human form being crucified on the cross for our sins, and was foretold from early on..... Nothing I can do to stop it or change what happened, and as a man I can not lessen his pain.... So for what reason would I possible become upset if this was done for the benefit of all mankind? Look at Schindlers List, loving caring people being exterminated by religious zealots who felt they knew God's will for everyone else and decide to take their knowledge of God and torture souls and exploit life in every way possible and to strip hope from their prisioners.... What chance did these people have to stop this tyranny? Is it wisdom to try to convert the people who do not see God from the place and way another does? Is there ever any end to military style conversion of faith? I have read in the bible where it is stated that .... Be ready to explain the hope of faith.... and I see this as an answer to a question,,, so the person sort of needs to desire to hear the expression of another's faith.... Otherwise you are talking about Christians who are ready to dust off their feet and ride the lightning of the rapture and be forgiven for the things they have done wrong and to never look inside and remove personal hate from past fear and future fear of encountering emotions they have not personally forgiven themselves and others for Love and Light | |
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Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida | Foxfires,
While I totally agree with what you are saying about unsolicited bible thumping (as I like to call it), there is one othe issue. Jesus said in Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (should be in red) from the NIV. However, the most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.
So kinda in defense of the do-gooders, they really believe they are going to save us Pagans/non-Christians. So another edict presented to Christians even if it might not (and probably isn't) in the original text. Does it justify their behavior? Probably not.
Your comparison between the crucifixion (which I doubt happened or at least not to Jesus) and Schindlers List is very well taken. I can appreciate your views on it.
Love and Light
Leo
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| Dear Leo, If I quote the bible I can say it reads as follows or perhaps Jesus said this or the following is explained... So if you read the bible and then explain it as what you read was what Jesus said.... There is an understood subject that you believe this also.... Ok this could be a stretch of the imagination, but I am back to manifestation and presentation of published materials verses a persons belief system and the tense it is presented in.... This is why I asked you certain questions on your faith earlier.... But what you believe is a free will question for you to answer, and we discussed it and left the subject after you were finished explaining what you had to express I just wanted to point out the way we discuss things and concept, there is possessive and neutral ownership of the subject, and even a disconnect way of discussion, through third person context But I can not argue the point of someone doing what they feel as right to do, but when someone say not interested, and another says listen longer and closer.... There are so many more who could benefit for religion if people did not look to their explanation power to get people into church.... The funniest Pentecostal Church event I was involved in was, where they used what they called a bible study night and used the entire time to discuss what everyone in other religions were doing wrong and then said we need to more people up in here.... Yeah.... I was told to keep the spirit under check and get out quietly As far Mark 16: 9-20 who knows the purpose or intent, but in Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia.... So this tells me that I am supposed to feel when it is right to share and not to share the word.... It is not to be an "ok I can sleep better when I get to paradise", knowing it was shared and they did not accept it, so absolution is granted and I am no longer responsible in God's eye... The issue of who or if Jesus died while on the cross, will never be decided and proved by the likes of me, so I have see to left any proof behind, or it is not handy.... So this is something to entertain theologians and perhaps a matter of hope and faith.... So does it matter who is right when we discussing faith in the unseen. People need hope and if you were proved right today on this fact, you would have just been responsible for for killing Christmas... I don't know about you but I do not want to be called the Grinch in the hereafter LOL The truth of the spiritual realm is probably closer to the practices of peace and acceptance.... and I feel like I stumbled upon the truth through religon..... This shames me to say it, but it is how I feel. Love and Light | |
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| cause - 10/17/2011 9:44 PM
>disa, I understand the attraction to paganism. to be free and excited, living with yourself and feeling no need to explain yourself. It feels good. I find that eventualy it is unfulfiling. many pagans go back to other religion as they become older. I have memories of dancing around a bonfire to the forefront of my mind. I have no real shame in doing this. I have no knowledge of a thou shalt not dance around a fire. in one of Goethe's more famous plays the wizzard and his intended partner rush together on the pire. Goethe's answer for this and the reason they are not dammed is simply 'lieb' (love) cause
Ahh, but none of this is my attraction to paganism. I am not free and excited, living with myself and feeling no need to explain myself. I have not yet, danced around bonfires. On the contrary, as was mentioned before paganism is often an honorable way to live. I am not part of any coven or group. I walk my own path at the moment, but it is a path of honor, accountability, and great responsibility. I have known many atheists and pagans who are much more honorable than some of the Christians I've known. Yet, we can't lump everyone into one group just because they label themselves such and such. My attraction to paganism is respect for the earth, respect for humanity, respect for people to be what they are- exactly what they were born as. On the whole I find pagans much more loving and accepting in general. As for going back to other religion, I didn't come from a religion. I don't have religious doctrine ingrained in my being that I have had to have painfully extracted in order to feel worthy. As an adult, I attended a Church of Christ for one solid year, became baptized, then realized it just wasn't working for me. Some of the teachings, of course made sense, but at it's very core, Christianity is so far from anything I believe that I don't think I could ever go back to a Christian Church. I think I've written about this someplace else before, so won't go into it all again. Just felt the need to comment, because it sort of sounded like your words" no need to explain myself" was one of the preconceptions people have of paganism that they do "just anything" with no thoughts of the consequences of their actions, frolicking and dancing without any responsibility for what they do to themselves or others, and that just isn't the case. At least, not the pagans and witches I know | |
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Location: NE Ohio | Constant reference to the bible, as being the sole source of what is right or wrong, shouldn't be. It's not so accurate. While it's a great spiritual, and most popular "channeled" information on the planet, it's just that, "Channeled information".
Not a single person who wrote the bible witnessed the events spoken directly about. They speak of stories passed along or smoked them some peace pipe and channeled the info after starving for a week. (brain and body deprivation causes hallucinations) THEN to top it off, some of the stories are DREAMED events. OK! I do believe in SOME channeled information, but not all of it... that would be pretty gullible to me.
My gosh, if I wrote my dreams as being prophetic.... and some of them were /are, and have saved lives.... there would be mass hysteria. Because i am just one in our BILLIONS of people who can do this now. We now believe in ourselves way more than we did back in the uneducated and days of total fear from a king.
What I do not like about the bible is: the book portrays God as being judgmental. Do as i say, or it's a sin, or it's eternal darnation... according to WHOM? a different interpretation of another man's writings? BLAH
This doesn't mean i don't think some of the morals are important, or the book is bad, it just means that when we want to talk about religion.... it's not all about Christianity. That is born much later than so many other religions on the planet, and twisted so many times to fit the belief system of yet another man.
What if we step back and realize... WE ARE GOD! Each of us.... so... know in our own hearts what is good, or bad and go with it. Experience everything.... If you love Christianity, stick with it, if you don't... then don't.
I personally have Christianity in my background, as I was raised religious. I grew bigger than the book. I have seen things and experienced things that make some of the wild tales in the bible, not so true. As with any story, everyone brings out of it what they each need. What works for some, doesn't work for others... so lets leave it at that.
I will NEVER convert anyone to my own religion, if I have one, and if I do it's called Jillithism. HA HA HA, it's little bits of this, and little bits of that, and my OWN channeled information from God.
I do not need anyone to believe, lead or follow.... just BE! Be well.... Be happy.
If my god had one thing to share: he she would share "LOVE EVERYTHING!"
Just for record, i do not bash the number 1 selling "Channeled" book on the market called the Bible. I just have higher sources that I trust and believe in. That is me.... and only me.
As far as Wicca, i see and value the part of that religion too, but again, it's a religion. I personally cannot stick to just one. There are great points and bad points to them all....
Be you!
HUGS~
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Location: Bellingham | Disa, I did not intend to express myself including all others expression and experience. I have been to general in speech. I also only have my own experiance and reading to much of "The Golden Bough" which describes many pagan practices in simplified terms.(repetitively and simply and from a distance). Morality needs no religion. I perhaps should have started this thread with 'we might validate your beliefs' That is my intended subject. The worship of wisdom is a facinating(to me). My first statement of this is that worshiping wisdom makes more sense than worshiping the wise, when you consider the divinity of each. this is strangely validated through the number of popular comments one can replace with the word wisdom with a more popular term for G_d. I am only partialy surprised by the number of people who expressed no belief system with this as the form of worship. Make of the thought what you will. I will state interest and the belief that others might express the same. G_d needent be unaproachable, particulary as a concept. light, cause
Edited by cause 10/18/2011 10:49 PM
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Location: California, USA | I guess I should have explained a bit more. :] Mine was a conscious decision after much research into religions (prior to UMS), deciding not to follow any of them and a feeling of 'knowingness' about certain things, energy and the like. I identify with witch craft as I use energy to fulfill my own purposes (w/ respect) and in my practices to help others. I agree witjh you, Disa, on so many points, esp inreply#22301. The use of energy is like prayer or focused intent, and it is in the letting go that power lies. In acknowledging your unity with All, not the separation between god/man/everything else, in working with not against natural laws. That is when you notice shifts. I am pagan, which really means the largely undefined non-Christian, but I am not ANTI-Christian as many pagans are. IMO there is too much divisiveness and the Universe is One.
I'm not sure any of this made sense but I am sleep deprived and only operating on one cylinder as it is... SF | |
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| Thanks ~Jesse, I like the way you explain this! It is hard to get into a church today without feeling the condemnation and judgment that seems to be present there by religious practioners.... It was explained by another person posting in this thread that there was circular reasoning going on here and I am guilty of this!!! But I have expressed the 12 step concept of God being approved by every religion who was will to provide feedback... I have tried to express this before and people run into the corners and start explaining they know only because they were there because of someone else's problem (which can mean don't look at me personally) And guess what Atheists and Agnostics are welcome into this belief system.... And by definition Lucifer can be your higher power, and I am supposed to smile and play nice with them and leave that issue alone But the concept of God can be anything from a light bulb to what is depicted on the ceiling of the 16th chapel,,,,, There is one little addition and we are supposed to seek this power and the truth it bears and ask for it to become clear as to what it is and our involvement level... And we do not need a definition of God, just a concept of something higher than ourselves on the spiritual food chain, and a concept of what we do wrong to be responsible for personally.... I can say my belief in God is as simple as I do believe in God and I am holly spirit filled.... but the two are not synomonus.... So if some person were to get zealous and want to attack my God or belief system, they have no clue where to start or end the process.... But hey it is very entertaining to watch this activity in progress I would also like to add that people who have studied the bible might have realized that the Hebrews had someone full time determining what to call God at a certain moment, as this seem to be everchanging.... I would also like to add that I have posted all of this before and it was not challenged then, so yes I am guilty of circular reasoning. But I would like to say this process is one of accepting others exactly as they are, and not to try to change them to our liking, but to help as we feel we can.... But the expression of spiritual advancement does seem to hinge around some pain and fear conquest,,, with a splash of letting go... I call the adventure of feeling strong emotions and releasing them when it seems right "A Spiritual Upgrade" And for the record I have fond more spiritual seekers (or it seemed that way) at 12 step meetings. So addiction can be the best thing to ever have happened to some humans from a spiritual standpoint.... As there can be some serious energy to release there, a lot more than the church could ever instill in some people. Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/19/2011 1:39 PM
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| soulfire - 10/19/2011 12:16 PM
I guess I should have explained a bit more. :] Mine was a conscious decision after much research into religions (prior to UMS), deciding not to follow any of them and a feeling of 'knowingness' about certain things, energy and the like. I identify with witch craft as I use energy to fulfill my own purposes (w/ respect) and in my practices to help others. I agree witjh you, Disa, on so many points, esp inreply#22301. The use of energy is like prayer or focused intent, and it is in the letting go that power lies. In acknowledging your unity with All, not the separation between god/man/everything else, in working with not against natural laws. That is when you notice shifts. I am pagan, which really means the largely undefined non-Christian, but I am not ANTI-Christian as many pagans are. IMO there is too much divisiveness and the Universe is One.
I'm not sure any of this made sense but I am sleep deprived and only operating on one cylinder as it is... SF
It all made sense, to me Glad to know you and I are on the same wavelength. I agree with you- I am not Anti-Christian, either- just anti-recruitment I've spent my life listening to Christians and trying to "get" what they have- that knowing they seem to be filled with. Trouble is- they don't spend an ounce of time trying to understand my perspective on anything. I still listen. I'm still interested. | |
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| leo - 10/18/2011 1:07 PM ...in Mark 16:15 "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation." .....Love and Light Leo And you also indicated it was not in all the historic texts and omitted in some versions of the bibleThe Buddha had a grieving woman who asked for her son back from the dead and asked the Buddha to do this, he asked her for a mustard seed from a house where no had ever died, and she went out and looked for this but in the process she had to share her grief and hope to people who had overcame this same situation, she returned to the Buddha with no mustard seed, but found happiness along the way from sharing in others experiences, as she had to ask if someone had ever died there at each house she went to Was this a lie for the Buddha to tell? Or did this simple request, just be for her to process and release her emotions and see how others have lived on past this event, and for her to find hope in an hour of grief So is there an Old Testament rule that we need the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and to do it without being brutally honest, or painfully accurate.... Sure seems like we are upping the handicap level for the spiritual rescue crews to find us up in here.... LOL So I ask the supplemental question, can the bible be true if there are things that are learning lessons, God seemed to do this with Job and the Leviathan story in Job 41: 1 -34 As there is a description there of a fire breathing Dragon.... But hey just cause I never saw one doesn't mean they don't exist Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | Disa, I spent year not 'recruiting' as you say. I mention it seldom. there is however a sad truth going about the USA. when being offered to 'get' what they have, it isn't that you are not listening right. It is simpily that they don't have what they offer either. This model runs from construction workers to movie stars. A faith should be as something experiential and evidential as modern Christian philosophy holds. Faiths that are not these things and/or unthinkingly dogmatic are something I will avoid. Not because I hate, but because they will not listen to me either. cause
Edited by cause 10/19/2011 7:16 PM
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| Cause, I certainly understand. | |
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| Disa, I hope all is well with you Love and Light | |
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| Life is good, Foxfires. Thanks. Hope all is well for you, too | |
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| Disa, All is well with me, I just wanted to express that I do pay attention to what you express, and you indicate that some do not listen or they do not care.... I do the best I can to not bee too nosy, and to be caring at the same time while not interfering where I am unwelcome.... Hard line to hold and to keep in the balance Love and Light | |
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| Oh, Foxfires. You know, in my posts I was referring to people in general, whom I have come across throughout the years in my life. Nothing I wrote was specifically referencing anyone on the forum as far as not listening, etc. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was referring to you, or anyone on the forum. I was mostly speaking my thoughts in generalized life encounters. People I have actually met and been affected by. My apologies if there was any miscommunication. | |
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| Disa, All is good, I just wanted to make sure you know I care and listen.... So if someone posts something I feel I can address, I try to help the best I can. Sometimes it seems like there is nothing I can do, when it seems I might be speaking out of turn. Do not worry I was just trying to be polite and observant in a kind way. Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | yes, let it rest. | |
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| Cause, Do you feel that others should stop this discussion at this point? I just wanted to make sure I did not offend Disa or others by attempting to convert them to my beliefs, and perhaps grieve their soul As I explain that I believe there are many similarities in religion and spiritual understanding.... As my attempt was to show what we do is not all that different, and some witches care more for people than self proclaimed religious folks.... And religion verses spirituality are both supposed to be the way to God or the higher source.... The difference being who is brave enough to say another is wrong, and to try to alter there path and claim ownership of the correct way and to purge everyone who does not believe them Love and Light | |
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Location: Bellingham | I didn't express a desire to end this conversation. just to enter a place of calm. no religion is completely valueless. but you can't be all religions. perhaps witches were trying through print to convert me to Their beliefs. don't be afraid to be weak, I am not. reason in enough to say another is wrong, or perhaps right. I am disapointed that no one stated that they were Wiccan. I would have liked to have had a discussion with them. I would have liked to share a new understanding of God.
Edited by cause 11/10/2011 5:56 AM
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Location: California, USA | As soon as you put a religious label on yourself you have a point at which you can feel justified and one by which you can judge the world and, if they are not in your camp, find them 'different' from you. You have a point of DIVISION, regardless of the good that comes. As I said before we are one and must see others/everything as such. In witch craft, this is the most important thing if you expect any results from working with the elements. They must be you and you them. There are some who try and place dogma on the practices of a witch, like Wicca but w/out the god and goddess clearly defined. 'this is how you do it'. While you're searching I'll teach you or write a how to book. I shy away from this. OK, I run screaming, I admit.
I come from a long healers line, if not 'witch' at least spirit-led magic, if you want to call it that. I am an intuitive witch. Don't ask me to describe what it is or how I do it. It just is and after studying for years, trying to pin it down, I gave up and let it be. But I am certainly grateful for the experiences and studies along the way. I don't usually tell people what I do(i.e. witch craft, healing etc.). 1. they would not understand 2. they have often assumed Wicca and things have gotten sticky 3. I come from a mormon background and family would not get it 4. it's much more fun to announce it w/out announcing it (see avatar, also in yard, on body and jewelry, etc) and see if anyone notices and understands. So far noone has. When they do, then we'll talk.
Cause- you will rexccognise from kabbalistic studies, tthat the tetragram is reflected in the knot, too. But that is another story. | |
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| Jesse, looks like a witch knot to me. But hey I cheated.... You do not need to explain anything to me, as Ladies are entitled to share only what they feel right about sharing Love and Light
Edited by FoxFires 10/28/2011 5:13 PM
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Location: California, USA | DING DING DING you gotit, but do you know the eternal significanceto the symbol and all it represents? I have yet to find many who do. beyond that I like it's obscurity instead of the overused and imbalanced pentacle (pentagram in a circle). I will change my avi and you will see different forms of the same symbol. | |
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| Jesse, Remember I said I cheated, that means I right mouse clicked on the symbol and selected save as to my desktop, and read the name you had it saved under, so it trys to save as this as a suggestion on my destop, I know the name of your new icon, k4knot What I do know by looking through the looking glass is you invoking the 4 winds here and possible the archangels stationed at the 4 corners of the earth, possibly the 4 elements of earth, wind, fire and water Love and Light | |
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Location: California, USA | correct. At least those are some very basic interpretations. in essence the equal armed cross at it's basic is a holy symbol found in all cultures throughout time which connects us to all that is. it is referenced in the symbols course with many of the meanings.
Edited by soulfire 10/28/2011 7:19 PM
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| Jesse, Same / similar 4 connection directions with like East / air and the other points also but more of an interlacing of people into the dimension.... Or to say likened to the serenity and harmony of things and people of with the triune by 4 point connection... likened to the trinity also similar to an iron cross Love and Light | |
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wicc, wicce, wicca