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WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????
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Rose
Posted 5/14/2008 1:19 AM (#5218)
Subject: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Is it me or does it strike anyone else as strange that after all these decades we have not solved our lack of health insurance in this country?

But we can come up with trillions of dollars to go to war. What if that money were used to put an electric car in everyone's garage....how many cars would 100 trillion dollars buy?

How many homeless families could be housed in this country with 100 trillion dollars? How many of the 2.5 million currently in foreclosure could have their home loans re-adjusted with very low government interest loans.

What else could 100 trillion dollars buy us? And how many of our citizens really think it's been well spent on the war in Iraq? Gas prices are not going down, they keep getting higher and higher. Food costs are getting higher and higher. So what exactly are we doing in Iraq? Why are so many sons, daughters, husbands and wives dying ? And why is it that our countrie's deficit is in the trillions of dollars and the only thing that ever gets paid is the interest, but if an individual is owing as little as $500 and is delinquent they can be turned down for renting a place to live. If one individual was in debt the way our country is almost every corporation would turn him or her down for a job because they would say they were high risk due to their debt. The standard is severly doubled. What happened to a country that is suppose to have leaders that represent the people and not people that are slave to the country?

Does anyone have answers they would like to share?

Run with it...

Love and Peace............

Edited by Rose 5/14/2008 1:24 AM
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sunflower
Posted 5/14/2008 2:00 AM (#5222 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????


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hi rose,yeah,you know i was pondering on this very thing last night,here in wales,its just been anounced that gas has gone up for the seocd time,within a few months,yet when itt first came out,we were told the gas were making millions of profit,yet they put it up again,same wirh electric,fuel,etc,yet no governing body does anything to stop it,pure greed,but i feel underneath,something more sinister.It seems the hierarchy are out to destroy the everyday working man/women,yet in the next breath a very expensive complex will be built,that serves no purpose,costing billions,while there are appeals on telly to donate to charities,i.e.homeless animals,children being abused,and the hospices doing a marvelous tireless task of caring for the reminaly ill children,have to be kept open purely by peoples genorosity,or they,d close.Now,i ask,why,when theyve just built that billion pound stadium,and that billion pound complex,so much more,spent billions on arms to give our troops to go to war in another country,risking our childrens lives,goverment giving themselves ridiculously high pay rises,why can,t that money be used on all of the above,i gladly give to charitable causes,but the governing bodies ignore,and spend on usless things,when added together,they could save so many lives,help the homeless,we sruggle,they thrive,this is a bone of contention with me,and my anger knows no bounds,when i see what is happening,and am owerless to act,something really strange,dark,is going on,time to rebel,sorry,going on and on,but doesn,t charity begin at home,apparently not here,bye x
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mruppert
Posted 5/14/2008 3:03 AM (#5223 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Dear Feliciana:
     From your comments, I gotta assume you are talking about the Hew Hess Hay....yeah, you are!
      I'd love to address each thing you said, as I am an historian, but it is getting late for me, so I will give you a broad consideration...take it or leave it.....but please continue this discussion one way or another.
      When we began to embrace the concept of the "federal" government as an entity in and of itself, it was then that we lost it.
       In the history of our government, WE (you and me, except maybe it was our great grandmas and grandpas) were the government, and it responded to us in a very direct and practical manner.
      But, over the years, it has taken on a life of it's own, much because we let it happen that way. Think about it, the concept of Washington is things that go on without your knowledge or
concent.
      Rosey, consider this, we have two parties running for the big prize! In the old days you may have had up to five or six parties running candidates. Times have, indeed, changed!!!!!
      Let me tell you where I am coming from.....in past elections I have voted for Ralph Nader (Independent) , and Dr. John Hagland (Natural Law Party) because Maryland allowed them on our ballot. I did so because I disdain the way things are now...and I particulary mistrust anyone who says they can change that. I had somewhat confidence  in Al Gore, but the election was stolen away from him.
        And now, Rosebud, I will say what you might find the silliest and dumbest thing that a man of my age can say. I have but few choices, for sure John McCain vs. a Dem (??) It's going to be Obama, but I WISH  it would be Hillary.
         Why, Thornyrose? Because, I believe that Hillary shares the visions of Obama, but has a better chance of getting them through Congress to reach the people.  Regardless of what the press says, Hillsy's National Health Care plan was well thought out, and would have worked!
       Very personal to me, there was killing  in one war for nothing, and I can no longer chose to kill in another for less than what was fought for before. All I can say is bring our kids home!
        We are a very powerful country, but we diminish our power by engaging in the stupidity of Iraq. Why, Rosepetal?
          It is not where our power really is!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace n' peace,
Marty and pacifist cats, Luck, Popp, and SissyGirl
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sunflower
Posted 5/14/2008 3:20 AM (#5226 - in reply to #5223)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????


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nope.
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NothingEverything
Posted 5/14/2008 8:39 AM (#5248 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Rose - 2008-05-15 2:19 PM

Is it me or does it strike anyone else as strange that after all these decades we have not solved our lack of health insurance in this country?

But we can come up with trillions of dollars to go to war. What if that money were used to put an electric car in everyone's garage....how many cars would 100 trillion dollars buy?

How many homeless families could be housed in this country with 100 trillion dollars? How many of the 2.5 million currently in foreclosure could have their home loans re-adjusted with very low government interest loans.

What else could 100 trillion dollars buy us? And how many of our citizens really think it's been well spent on the war in Iraq? Gas prices are not going down, they keep getting higher and higher. Food costs are getting higher and higher. So what exactly are we doing in Iraq? Why are so many sons, daughters, husbands and wives dying ? And why is it that our countrie's deficit is in the trillions of dollars and the only thing that ever gets paid is the interest, but if an individual is owing as little as $500 and is delinquent they can be turned down for renting a place to live. If one individual was in debt the way our country is almost every corporation would turn him or her down for a job because they would say they were high risk due to their debt. The standard is severly doubled. What happened to a country that is suppose to have leaders that represent the people and not people that are slave to the country?

Does anyone have answers they would like to share?

Run with it...

Love and Peace............



George Orwell:
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

Hannah Arendt:
It is well known that the most radical revolutionary will become a conservative on the day after the revolution.

Henry David Thoreau:
If a thousand men were not to pay their tax-bills this year, that would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent blood. This is, in fact, the definition of a peaceable revolution, if any such is possible.

John Steinbeck:
I have named the destroyers of nations: comfort, plenty, and security - out of which grow a bored and slothful cynicism, in which rebellion against the world as it is, and myself as I am, are submerged in listless self-satisfaction.

Oscar Wilde:
Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion.

Ralph Waldo Emerson:
Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory.

Robert M. Hutchins:
The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

Albert Camus :
“The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion.”

Thomas Carlyle:
Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.


*Abraham Lincoln, First Inaugural Address, Washington, D.C., March 4, 1861:
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."

*George Washington, Farewell Address, September 17, 1796:
"The basis of our political system is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government . . ."

*John Adams, Notes for an Oration at Braintree, Spring 1772:
"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty."

*Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stevens Smith, November 13, 1787:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty . . . And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."


Terrorism is an illusion, something well thought out by people in charge to use a a label for revolutionist.
Voting is not enough anymore, only revolt remains.
Revolution is not a dirty word, it is a beautiful right, it is the minor punishment for the child that is our goverment.
Who we as a parent, have spoiled rotten.
Those in office that we vote for are NOT our leaders, we are our own leaders, they are our representations to the world.


Edited by NothingEverything 5/14/2008 8:47 AM
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/14/2008 8:46 AM (#5249 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Wow - what a collection of sages NE.

I only might think to add, from Jesus, 'Render unto Caesar things that are Caesar's and unto God, the things that are God's'
(Matthew 22:21)

Oh perhaps & Ghandi, when asked, what he thought of Western civilization, he replied, that it would be a very good idea.
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Rose
Posted 5/14/2008 11:19 AM (#5271 - in reply to #5222)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Sunflower, you mentioned gas going up and here it's been going up every week! And that's no exaggeration. The answer you will typically get is..."it's not that easy" because of all the red tape. There are laws preventing progression towards the betterment of humanity. But it's getting increasingly ridiculous that I recently heard of some company coming to the aid of starving Americans. That the company was coming to their aid is a good thing.

What's ridiculous is that there are starving Americans. We have working poor in this country. People working two jobs and still can't make ends meet. With all that we have here, with the waste we see around us everyday....there's no reason why we can't help feed and house our own people. It's a national disgrace.
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Rose
Posted 5/14/2008 11:36 AM (#5272 - in reply to #5223)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Mruppert, your points are well taken. I agree with what you pointed out about the Federal Government. When did the country close their eyes and go to sleep and give all inherent power to the Federal Government? Why are laws being passed without the people being represented?

Why are so many policies being passed without proper representation? Bipartisan elections are out dated. I'm not even sure they were ever fashionable. We need more candidates that the people can choose from. I'm starting to believe that the superdelegates are not as intelligent as we (as a country) had originally hoped for. So the common folk are so unintelligent as to be able to vote for themselves and we have superdelegates to do the job for us all. "Things that make you go....hmmmm??" But the common folk are good enough to shed their blood and the blood of their children so those in capital hill can still vacation, live in large homes, make money from stocks and investments that they help to pass legislation that in fact affects the return on their very own dollars. Again, "things that make you go.....Hmmmm???....

Seems like a pretty nice arrangement they have for themselves, doesn't it? At the expense of their fellow men and women.

Maybe it's just me but I had a problem watching our State Capitol representatives shopping on 5th. Avenue in New York while we have young men and women in fox holes shedding blood, while ill equipped, leaving many a motherless and fatherless child behind, and yet there seemed to be no consciousness of this while Dr. Condoleezza Rice had cameras on her while shopping for her next $1000+ outfit.

Call me crazy but it has dawned on me while members of congress are voting in higher pay raises for themselves and making sure they work less hours for more that our men and women in Iraq would love to have regular days off and paid vacations. They would love to go shopping on 5th. Avenue. But chances are many will never be able to afford that. And what is the psychology behind this...something like this: the men and women there don't expect the higher quality lifestyle so they won't miss what the members of our government feather themselves with in way of riches.

I don't buy this psychology. Because what I believe is that anyone given the opportunity would rather work decently for the comforts of life. I don't believe that anyone likes working themselves at two jobs so they can barely make ends meet. I just don't believe that given the choice to work 47 hours a year for a six figure income or two jobs to barely make $30,000 or less that anyone in their right mind would choose the latter.

Maybe it's just me, but please share your thoughts.

Love and Peace to all of you........
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Rose
Posted 5/14/2008 11:38 AM (#5273 - in reply to #5248)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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NE, thanks for posting this. It's a beatiful collection I would love to print and have framed!
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Rose
Posted 5/14/2008 11:43 AM (#5274 - in reply to #5249)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Good Point Paul.

Love and Peace to you.
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mruppert
Posted 5/14/2008 1:51 PM (#5282 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Hi Rose:
     NTET has phoned home...and given me a walk through history and philosophy, one that was full of memories.
     Rosebud, you pushed a lot of hot buttons.....hmmmm............Condoreeza Lice (spelling is very intentional) is an utter and dismal failure in her role, and cost my beloved city ( I was born in New York) two or more buildings and thousands of lives. THEY ( the executive branch ) KNEW! But, they didn't do anything. If they had done something, anything, and it failed, I would be forgiving, but they did NOTHING! The NYC firemen, are thought to be heroes. But, they were, indeed, doing their jobs, and are highly paid to do so...my uncle was a fireman. They make good money as municiple employees. The true heroes are the people who lie on the ground in Pennsylvania, who fought back in the face of certain disaster, not to try to save their lives (though they wanted to live) but to try to save the lives of others.
     Some of NTET's quotes are invariably tinged with revolutionary fervor, but what I need to point out is that  this very country was on the verge of revolution a mere 40 years ago. Our own National Guard (Ohio) opened fire on protesting students and shot and killed four of them. Look at Mary Ann Vecchio's face! It took massive protests, riots, and criminal acts to get the government to bend to the will of the people.
     Will this happen again....highly unlikely. But, what we can do is to take back our government by holding those in government to a higher standard, and electing  those that truly represent us. And, make public service a right and privilege, not an avenue to wealth.

Peace and Right Arm...errrr.....On!
Marty and Panther Cats, Luck3XX, Popp2XXY, and SissyCinque

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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/14/2008 2:18 PM (#5285 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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First - an 'injoke' for 'cross-threaders' - note at this exact moment how many Invisible Users. That is just an observation, nothing more or less; but I do personally find it of interest. Walter de la Mare also wrote a book about Dreams (I may inadvertently have credited 'The Listeners' yesterday to Masefield, but if I did, sorry to mislead, it was de la Mare - just realized as I am posting this ...but Masefield definitely wrote the other poem I mentioned earlier, something like, The Seekers)

Anyways back to the point (if I can remember it) .. Oh yes; I realize now why I have digressed; it is most likely because I fear I am about to make myself unpopular - or more than I might be already (ha ha); it is this .....

Speaking pithily, clearly Rose, you are coming from a passionate perspective on social (in)justice, and all spiritual traditions, as manifestations of God's love, must address that; but, too, or more fundamentally, I kind of feel we need to remember that we are in the world of Illusion; the veil of tears; seeing through a glass darkly; the etneral Becoming; the eternaly departure and return; the eternal loss and gain. I know that is very easy to say, from the comfortable perspective that some of can afford to have; but equally, we must not allow ourselves to be lost in the web of Samsara.

I woud mention Ecclesiastes, but have done often before. But basically, there is nothing new nder the sun, history never changes only its texture (Mao, quoted before); do what thou wilt (AC, if you like that kind of thing) ... but we all get back to the same circle of becoming. There is no escape (Christine Breese, perhaps paraphrased, apologies if so, CB). The point is to become Free [of the cycle of becoming; and then if we so choose, to return to it as Bodhisattva); and of course, do what we can to assist others to become Free. But I fear/feel, that can only really and truly be done by our own individual & personal actions.

God is cosmic, but can only enact in the microscopic, through us: so i feel, anyway.

Namaste
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John W. Kelly
Posted 5/14/2008 2:50 PM (#5292 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????


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Humanity, as a whole, is incapable of peace. Pick up a world history book and open it randomly to any page. I'll bet you'll find some sort of power struggle going on. How can we improve this? By living our own lives in such a manner that we send a message that says "there is a better way!"
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/14/2008 3:27 PM (#5298 - in reply to #5292)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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We live in a dream, we inhabit a dream; we enact the dream; we are the dream.

[Channelled words just evoked by John's post]....

There is no blame, there is no future, there is no past; Now is now.

Humanity is, or Is not.
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Tracy Martin
Posted 5/14/2008 4:13 PM (#5311 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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                                          The world will mirror what is in you. ?

I agree to a certain extent that the world is a kind of illusion, a place where we continue to experience duality, right and wrong, suffering and joy, dreams fulfilled and dreams denied, life and death, health and sickness. There are things that can be fixed and things that cannot.

And yet, there are also healers, lovers, activists for justice and peace, and most of all there are 'just plain folks,' families, friends and neighbors. I have often wondered if the philosophy that Paul speaks of might not maintain the status quo - leaving behind social change in favor of some practice that might free one from the wheel of suffering, because it is all 'just an illusion.' 

Nevertheless, in my opinion, social conscience has grown and grown through the centuries anyway. I suppose I believe in the evolution or unfolding of human consciousness aligning itself with the divine within creation. We are returning to the creative source and ground of our being. How beautiful this could look as we continue to awaken.

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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/15/2008 8:51 AM (#5348 - in reply to #5311)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Yes Tracy; I resonate with all you say too.

Ever see the 1960s film, El Topo ? A powerful & disturbing film.

Gandhi, whom I cited, did gain India's independence through non-violence, but I think he also acknowledged that his system might not have worked against the Nazis - ie, he used Britain's values against the Empire.

Jesus too said, 'Resist not evil' (and see what happened to him!); but how can you not resist, if the evil is in plain day ? (I recall that other thread about what is evil, etc)

These are partly why I posted that thread, is every System wrong? That is, there may be no magic single answer to every unforeseen situation, yet we - the human race - seem to yearn for one.

NE gave some great examples of how men and women of principle sought to integrate social justic with spiritual values, and in no way was I decrying that; just posing another dimension I guess
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Tracy Martin
Posted 5/15/2008 12:31 PM (#5369 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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I will check out the disturbing film. I used to be very pessimistic, mostly because I believed that what was being portrayed in the media (news, movies) was the truth about everyone's lives. Now I am trying to find my balance in the world. Human beings are not as horrid as we have been taught. Governments and religions and corporations use fear, and fear of ourselves and the people around us to exercise control over us. We are given the message that we are too ignorant, too unpredictable, to violent to be trusted to live in peace and community. Bull. The pessimism that is promulgated by our media affects our individual and community self-esteem.  

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MollyB
Posted 5/15/2008 12:41 PM (#5373 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream...Edgar Allan Poe

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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/15/2008 4:53 PM (#5384 - in reply to #5369)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Yes Tracy - 'cept I had to fight off having a fight with three teenagers throwing stones at the wild ducks and swans on Hampstead Heath this evening; and after politely remonstrating with them, they stopped, then threw stones at me, from a safe distance .... they were aged around 15/16; one had a broken arm, the other was half my size; I was perplexed by their viciousness. When near to me they threw a stick at a duck, I said, they do not eat sticks, which provoked them to be verbally abusive, then as i say, out of near contact, a stone landed at my feet. Three days ago in our Oxford Street (near where I work), a man was stabbed to death at 4pm.

All in a day;s work for a trainee angel, I guess.

El Topo means, i think the Mole in Spanish; in the film he goes from gunslinger, black leather clad, to self-immolating monk (it was made at the time Buddhist monks were igniting themselves in protest at the Vietnam war)

Quoth the Raven
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MollyB
Posted 5/15/2008 7:27 PM (#5388 - in reply to #5384)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Nevermore....

Paul...something we have in common...Recently I had a man cuss me up one side and down the other for intruding on his attempt to kick a one legged pigeon! (Why in the world???) I imagine if I had been a man he would have thrown stones at me like in your experience.

My mouth gets me in trouble when it comes to the defense of animals. Oh well...."I'm a priest not a saint!"
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NothingEverything
Posted 5/16/2008 2:56 AM (#5394 - in reply to #5369)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Tracy Martin - 2008-05-16 1:31 AM

IHuman beings are not as horrid as we have been taught. Governments and religions and corporations use fear, and fear of ourselves and the people around us to exercise control over us. We are given the message that we are too ignorant, too unpredictable, to violent to be trusted to live in peace and community. Bull. The pessimism that is promulgated by our media affects our individual and community self-esteem.  



Hey! thats what true terrorism is!
and the brand in which i was talking about.
As far as troublmakers goes. Not many of those in Japan.
At least none that bother my 2m (6'5) 250lb self, haha!
But I always have to stop problems that arise from between co-workers.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/16/2008 6:39 AM (#5400 - in reply to #5394)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



PhD Alumni

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Location: United Kingdom
Slightly off the thread maybe, but I find it interesting in Jesus' 'resist not evil', because of the other side of the coin (so to speak), when he - violently - threw out the money lenders from the temple.

Nice to have something in common MollyB.
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mruppert
Posted 5/18/2008 4:13 AM (#5456 - in reply to #5218)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Hi all:
     I wanted to quote JWK but Tracers took precedence:
"And yet, there are also healers, lovers, activists for justice and peace,"
     Healers? Miniscule!
     Lovers? Hmmmm...depends upon what you mean.
     Activists?  Millions.....who have little, if any effect, on the things that go on today.

I leave you with this thought:
Centurion Cartaphilus:Will you die for him? WILL YOU DIE FOR HIM?

An interesting concept.....what would you do???????????

Peace,
Marty and NineLived Cats, Luck, Popp, and Siss
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/18/2008 4:23 AM (#5459 - in reply to #5456)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Location: United Kingdom
MJR - "I am Spartacus"

(I did not look that up; but it is correct; source: it is a line form the last part of the film Spartacus, with Kirk Douglas; based on the true story of a slave's revolt, which ultimately 'failed' (aah, but did it, becauase after the last battle the Romans are seeking our Spartacus, and every man in his arm (ex-slaves) so as not to betray him, & more, to still identify with ther moments of freedom, shout 'I am Spartacus').

So Marty - a quote form another source, with some gloss of my own. Just to be clear about that !!
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/18/2008 4:26 AM (#5460 - in reply to #5459)
Subject: RE: WHY SO MANY YEARS AND STILL NO SOLUTIONS????



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Location: United Kingdom
Oh and true healing; I haven't got my Biblbe in front of me, so cannot look it up, but your mention of the Centurion reminds me of the parable of the Centurion in the NT - who leaves his sick daufghter, goes to see Jesus, and says, in effect, you do not need to visit my daughter, you only need to speak the healing words and she will be healed, because, as i am a man in authority, I know that you are, and your word, even though here, not there, will be sufficient - an early example of absent healing - now who was the healer, Jesus, or the Centurion ?
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