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Did God create evil?
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/28/2008 4:02 AM (#4777 - in reply to #4765)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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.... but please remember, non-duality ....

an old, now long-deceased, friend of mine, an Anglican Fransiscan monk (Bro Ian Scott, SSF), who i was going to mention before, popped into my brain again here ... he used to say, 'God is good and evil, but always chooses good' ....

... but in the karmic world, and thinking of Christine's satsangs, the cosmic self wants - needs? - to experience everything of Her/His creation.

So we are perahps back to paradox.
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ongoingbattle
Posted 4/28/2008 1:04 PM (#4811 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Paul and NTET, you are both saying the same thing and it is an amazing realization to have. Time is referential. Cho and Sun are also onto something big when they said free will created evil. I believe this statement with all my heart: "Evil does not exist independant of man." I read this series by TERRY GOODKIND, the Sword of Truth Series. This is the most amazing series i have ever read, it's practically my bible. I just finished the 12th and final book yesterday. It left me breathless, in tears, and with a smile on my face!! If you want to see a character develop in an amzing way to have the outlook on life i think so many of us are striving for then please read this series. It is quite the undertaking, (with the 3rd book being a little slow, but hands down, the 6th and 12th book alone make it worthwhile, not to down play all the others). The Main character, Richard, realizes that evil doesn't really exist. He sees first hand how both sides in a battle usually feel they are right and that the other is evil. He ends saying that evil does not exist independant of man, and therefore our free will is what allows us to choose how we live, for good, prosperity, and growth, or for evil, corrution and stagnation. He condemns those who would live for corruption, not to death, but instead condemns them to life; to live out their lives in the corruption they spawn
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Tracy Martin
Posted 4/28/2008 4:28 PM (#4826 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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It seems to me that 'man' created evil, not 'God.'
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/28/2008 4:41 PM (#4828 - in reply to #4811)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Its nice to be so much moved by a work of literature, Ongoingbattle. I was much moved by Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series in the 1970s and wrote some - unpublishable - books of my own, one of which, back in 1977 or so, was about a magic sword; I hawked it around without success. Its very interesting how ideas seem to have a time, and some express it more synchronistically/successfully than others. That's why I took a decision to devote to the Dark Lady of verse rather than prose ...

Now Tracy; man created evil ... hmmm ... that acceeds to man (do you mean woman too?) quite a power ... I say that 'cos, where I am coming from in these reflections, is that good and evil are the yin and yang, male and female, yes and no, of the Cosmic Order.

So I would personally rather say that, we - men and women - can choose the good or choose the evil; either becomes a 'path not taken' (oh dear, sorry, another poem - Robert Frost ...) and, in the Metaphysical terminology, all another aspect of the 'required course', until the, 'appointed time': a time that is outside of time.
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Omjah
Posted 4/28/2008 4:59 PM (#4832 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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What is evil? 'Man's inhumanity to man.' Is the earth evil for erupting, quaking, flooding? No, only our reaction defines it as evil.
What is evil? Only what man or god says is evil, and that is most usually confined to the actions of humanity.
People sometimes say, how could God allow this or that, but once again it is the actions of humankind that has created the suffering.
If we are thinking of evil as some kind of dark force malevolently moving about the planet, it is we who are thinking it so!
Evil does not exist without mankind's creating it.

Om!
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Tracy Martin
Posted 4/28/2008 5:14 PM (#4839 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Yes, I meant all of humanity, not just men.

In the material world, we experience duality. Light and Shadow, good and evil. In awareness we experience Beingness, isness, without labels or judgments, or any passing emotion. I am wondering if the tao, the yin and yang is also a manifestation, a creation, and not the ultimate reality which might best be described as no-thing?

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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/28/2008 5:19 PM (#4841 - in reply to #4839)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I think so absolutely Tracy - i posted somewhere earlier today from a possbile incorrect rendition of the Tao Te Ching

"The Way that can be named is not the constant Way"

The Buddha's flower sermon .... Jesus's silence, when asked by Pilate, 'What is truth ?'

Silence is ultimately the only pure response to 'the question'
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Supernatural3
Posted 4/29/2008 9:13 PM (#4873 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I don't know.... again... deep thoughts.

God created energy, and energy has both negative and positive equally bound. The binder is neutral.
With these three key things, we have balance, we lose one and we lose balance and die.

Man just exploits evil.... blaims everything on it, and even used evil as an excuse.

Evil is just a word, that describes negative, which is needed, or we couldn't experience positive.

It's keeping the balance that is a pain in the rear, or we all become free radicals.
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mruppert
Posted 4/29/2008 9:49 PM (#4874 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Hi all.....
     DocJ....those that do others a specific harm do so for some sort of gain. Those that do many others harm do so for an ill perceived higher purpose. Although this is abhorrent to me, and I am sure all of us, I must point out that there are those that do harm on any scale for the sheer evil(pleasure) of doing it.
     Sharon Tate was a crappy actress, and the LoBiancos not particularly noted for anything of significance. Yet, Charlies Girls slaughtered them in a most bizarre manner....this is EVIL. There is no rationale, it is, just plain murder for the sake of bloodlust.
     What do you say about that?

Peace,
Marty and Fraidycats
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/30/2008 4:16 AM (#4886 - in reply to #4874)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Resonations, Marty. Hitler, Stalin and Mao always haunt my brain too.

There's also a problem too with readily comparing good/evil with, eg, yin/yang (as I indeed did) which is that it could place them on an equal footing.

The God who is good and evil but who always chooses good, elevates some behaviours and preferences over others. So while, pace Christine's, 'all of karma is a required course', that resonates too, but the lesson of karma is to attain at-one-ment with the Higher Self (who always chooses good ...).

Owzat ?
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Nefertiti
Posted 4/30/2008 9:58 AM (#4894 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Mental Illness plays a huge part of this too. Which in most cases, caused by MAN. However some are born with problems, perhaps with a destiny to be the villain or hero.

I too, see both sides.

Love and Light
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/30/2008 4:35 PM (#4900 - in reply to #4894)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I have drafted further responses then discarded them. But I cannot restrain myself a further comment here - previously too I had refrained from making any linkages to mental illness, so as, at least, not to make mental illnesss seem any more 'evil' than any other illness, physical or otherwise, eg, cancer, etc; i am sure, none of your intention, Nefertiti, so this is perhaps me just clarifying my own position.

Mental illness in this context is, as i suggest above, another 'force of nature'; our human condition, perhaps a learning, perhaps a karmic event.

Evil, in the terms i had been understanding and responding is a more 'cosmic', metaphysical, or universal force, that all of us are required to contend with - through our capacity to choose, in the metaphor that I have most recently been using.

To take one exmaple from the historic individuals I mentioned, Hitler was never diagnosed or treated for mental illness; he did refer to having a 'voice', that he interpreted as a conduit for the Germanic, Aryan peoples - all a fiction, really, but so powerful as to bring a nation under his sway. For me, that is a million miles away from the individual distress and suffering experienced in mental illness, though equally, those sensitive enough to endure 'mental illness' are often experiencing an incredible spiritual profundity (eg, the English poet John Clare, but there are many others)
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NothingEverything
Posted 5/1/2008 7:37 AM (#4912 - in reply to #4727)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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mruppert - 2008-04-28 3:11 PM

And NTET puts, in poetic terms what I believe...
All TIME exists,
All of TIME exists at all times,
All of TIME exists everywhere!

Read NTET's words carefully, he is saying exactly what I mean.

PEACE,
Marty and PerPETual Cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, and the Sissygirl


Thank you Marty!
Your great at "seeing"!
Rather than looking.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/1/2008 8:07 AM (#4913 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Doesn't it say somewhere in the Upanishads [ substituting the neuter 'one' for 'man'; also from memory so could be slightly off key] ?

"May the evil one become good,
the good one become free,
may those who are free
make others free
may those who are free
find God "





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NothingEverything
Posted 5/2/2008 4:16 AM (#4942 - in reply to #4841)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Paul Joseph - 2008-04-29 6:19 AM

I think so absolutely Tracy - i posted somewhere earlier today from a possbile incorrect rendition of the Tao Te Ching

"The Way that can be named is not the constant Way"

The Buddha's flower sermon .... Jesus's silence, when asked by Pilate, 'What is truth ?'

Silence is ultimately the only pure response to 'the question'


yes.
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Supernatural3
Posted 5/3/2008 6:48 PM (#4968 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I think while human, we experience everything in a physical sense. As we cannot have one with out the other. But in spirit form, we sure can, because thought is real.... if we think it, we create it. If one believes in hell, they may just create that. One of my best friends said that confessions are only for the person to be able to forgive them self. I believe that.

As far as mental illness, some are for sure born with physical ailments. Chemical processes that are not processing right, or an extra chromazone, which causes down syndrome, and even with that and patience, a person with a brain defect can still lead a normal life. But then, there are those who have the identified and associated behaviors of bad teachers [abusive parent(s)]. Since Hitler was mentioned, it depends on what view your viewing from on whether he was experiencing mental illness through, because he was only carrying out what he was programmed to believe was morally right. I don't remember where i learned about Hitlers up-bringing, but he too was a victim of wrongful teachings. His parents were extreme prejudice and very strict to the point where Hitler LEARNED that getting rid of the BAD race was a good thing. YES, This then turned into mental illness caused from abuse, is the outcome of years of bad programming. Because there is no such things as murder being a good thing. There is self defense, but that isn't considered murder.

So basically, evil is impossible at 100%, because it's a choice to be evil, when there is always an alternative positive choice. To choose it, doesn't mean they were all evil, it means they thrived on what they were taught. They may not have even realized it was bad. Which is a shame. Morals of right and wrong is something that should be taught to all. But where is the line to say, WHAT is the perfect balance? Do we know that?

We cannot let others just push us around, and we don't want to push others around.... balance of both is all we have.
OOPS, i rambled...

I do understand many points of views here, and love the comments.
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mruppert
Posted 5/4/2008 1:28 AM (#4969 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Heeelllloo to all, and to DocJ and PJ:
     I would ask you to look at the many tapes of Hitler speaking before crowds.....I think you will find that he was a "charismatic" speaker...perhaps even mesmeric as DocJ might relate to. Look deeply at his eyes and his hands as he speaks. Look at his postures!
     My German is poor at best, as Aqua will tell you, as she is German. I am so many times removed from my country of origin, that it is a non existent language for me. But, I can understand some of what is being said. The true "architects of death" fed words to a charismatic leader...and we witnessed its end result.
     Don't we really want charismatic leaders?
     Look at AL, FDR and JFK!!!!!! Instead we settle for Nyetxon, RayGun, and Bush1 and Bush2.
      I do not say that each of them haven't accomplished or decomplished many things.....all I say is that not one single one of them have had the "charisma" to lead a nation to greatness.
      And what does this have to do with our topic.....?
      We are currently a "Christian" nation fighting an "evil" intent......but ARE WE REALLY?

Peace,Love, and Hope,
Marty and Luckylee, Poppyhead, and Blind SissyGirl
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/4/2008 5:21 AM (#4978 - in reply to #4968)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Hello All & Everyone

But then, were Hitler's parents 'evil' ? Horrendous case in Europe emerging of the man who had allegedly kept his daughter a sex slave for years & allegedly fathered children with her ... where do we draw a lne with responsibllity ? We might ask to be forgiven - n hte confessional- then repeat our behaviour (Karmic learning, [perhaps]?) ... and then there are all those abducted children ... 'Oh the horror' ...

Different types of behavour can be called different things ("What's in a name", WS, again!); but does that alter the emotional impact of the behaviour upon us, or those directly affected? Does that lessen the ethical consequences? What redeems the suffering of those to whom 'evil', or 'negative impact/consequences" [if that be a less emotive term for evil] has been done or perpetrated?

My feeling is we are seeking to describe an indescribable, especially when it gets into the bizarre realms of quantifiable awefulness (eg, Nazi Holocaust, Stalin's purges, Mao, Pol Pot, etc) - but there are also some qualitative awefulnesses, eg, long term sexual abuse on a vulnerable individual, child abducions, that do seem to require those of who believe in Something Other, to have a reasoned perspective on. I feel that the Law of Karma is one of the best, perhaps actually, the only one; but for me that resonates too with my quote from the Upanishads, and Bro. Ian's, 'god of good and evil who always chooses good'.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/4/2008 6:09 AM (#4981 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Sorry, sent the above post twice by mistake without finishing it .... checked a book called, 'The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness', by Erich Fromm (he who wrote, 'The Art of Loving'). Fromm undertook extensive research on the personalities of the 'great' dictators. He seems to conclude hat Hitler was not abused as a child; using a number of osurces, he indicates that Hitler's mother doted on him and indulged him; his father was a strict authoritarian (but who never beat him); but that Hitler himslef was always prone to fantasies, was difficult to cotnrol, stubborn, and had an overinflated sense of himself/grandiosity. There is more one could quote, but that is sufficient perhaps to add to these discussions.
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MollyB
Posted 5/4/2008 1:12 PM (#4982 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Or perhaps, a Soul contracts to experience certain 'evils' in a lifetime for the sake of wisdom, learning and their own Spiritual advancement. Or an entire Soul group contracts the same to teach a larger, more global lesson and further the Spiritual path of mankind as a whole. This makes what some would call 'evil', necessary, with purpose and even integral to furthering our Souls.

If we want to believe that there is something/someone 'out there' as a sort of Director for this grand play we are all participating in...call it the Higher Power, God, Universal Consciousness, the Great Architect, Jehovah, Allah, whatever...then it's logical to me to think that the potential for all things, even what we label as 'evil', come from that Creative Source. Conversely, if 'evil' does not originate with the All, that renders all the suffering, bloodshed, man hurting every living creature on the planet and eachother, all these horrors throughout the ages...it renders it without meaning, without purpose and containing no opportunity for wisdom. To me, that seems nonsensical and disagrees with everything I have learned from a Metaphysial and Theological standpoint.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/4/2008 2:39 PM (#4983 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Wow, Molly, that's a very 'radically forgiving' statement ... you could be onto something, but that takes a lot of Grace to fathom.

Takes us back to the meaning, if there be any, in suffering.

After posting earlier, i thought I should go back and read the beginning of the Gospel of John (NT), andf the beginning of the Tao Te Ching, as I vaguley rememberd there might be things there to help; so i haven't.

But I will, unless anyone else has them handy !
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