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|Do we have free will or not?|
Location: United Kingdom
The way I understand this life is that there is one precious gift we have on this planet and that is the freedom of choice. Whether we are as yet aware of this or not, to help us grow into spiritual maturity we are constantly presented with the necessity of making choices of some kind. The way I see it is that we have this much sung freedom, but only up to a point. Someone likened it to that of a dog on a long lead; us being the dog and our Karma the lead. We all have our pre-destined pathway to walk, and each and everything has to fit into the Grand Plan. We are only allowed to veer off to the right or left, up to a certain point. Whenever we are in danger of coming off our pathway too far and are paying insufficient attention to this lifetime’s predestined lessons, something will happen that nudges us – if need be not all that gently – back into the position we are currently meant to occupy.
When difficult tests and trials come our way, we usually hate them like poison. Although frequently that is not what we want at all, we can be sure that what we are getting is exactly what we need, and that we are always treated entirely fair. During our times of strife and struggle opportunities are always being offered to us to reach out for the hand of our Highest Self, to get down on our knees and pray, so that help of some kind may come to us. Through this process our soul learns its most valuable lessons and grows. Everything that is in our Creator is also in us. And the ultimate goal of humankind to integrate all aspects of our being, the small and frightened earthly self and the Highest Self, and to bring them together so that they can work harmoniously, the same as they do in God.
The onus for consciously making wise choices is upon every individual soul. This may initially sound intimidating and scary, but at the same time it is a wonderfully empowering experience to know that whenever something is troubling us, we are not life’s helpless victims, we do have a choice. For example in the case of sickness; like all great ideas, it’s basically very simple. We can either continue our suffering or go in search of relief and – hopefully – healing. The Universe loves us and is always ready and willing to heal whatever befalls us, and to put things right again when they have gone awry. To help us with our learning, it never interferes with anyone unnecessarily. That is why small wounds and ailments heal on their own – well, they do not really do so on their own; the Universe quietly heals them for us. With Love and Light – Aquarius
|Hi to all:|
Asch: Well, yes, of course you have free will! What would make you think you do not? The dichotomy is that those that are "free" exercise the least amount of free will; while those that are "enslaved" exercise the most.
Marty and Free Cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, and Sissygirl, who are enslaved by comfort.
Location: NE Ohio
|YEP, we sure do. That is why we have ghosts, spirit guides, humans, angels, etc. We wanted that~ |
Some people even WANT demons.... so to some, they exist too. Free will is some tricky stuff.
|Leave it to Doc to get to the root of the question:|
"Free will is some tricky stuff".......
Doc has hit on some 2000 years of metaphysical tradition and learning.
The things we discuss today are nothing compared to the grand battles fought by metaphysicians of the past.....because free will, not only was tricky, but was also precious, since it was the very thing that so many wanted to suppress, and sometimes by death.
Peace and Hope,
Marty and Bob Hope Cats, on a USO tour!
Location: NE Ohio
|I know it sounds silly, but to think about it really,"free will" means that the sky is the limit. OR space, or endless infinity.... and so on. To think it, creates it, and so it shall be..... and that is what makes it tricky. Willing something, doesn't always mean we like the outcome.|
Location: United Kingdom
|How right you all are - and yes, the sky is the limit; in other words our potential is unlimited. We are only just beginning to scratch the surface of becoming aware of these things, would you agree? With love - Aquarius|
Location: NE Ohio
|oh yeah, i certainly agree. I think our brains are limited due to our skull only being so big. LOL |
Once we are OUT, it will all come back to us.
Just not in a hurry...... ha ha
Location: United Kingdom
|Dear Jill - I don't believe that we have to wait until we are 'out', as you put it. Through our inner connection with the Highest, we can all learn to take part in and get the benefit of all the knowledge that has ever been gathered by any soul, in any of its lifetimes - including yours and mine. With love - Aquarius|
Location: NE Ohio
|I suppose that is true, just a lot harder to master. We gotta think outside the bun.... as taco bell says.|
|Ah Aqua....some guy described free will as "geshwind wie der wind" which Soren Kierkegaard took great exception to. His quote was....liberally "that is the start of a great long-winded story" ( I don't remember exact words) but he went on to write "The Sickness Unto Death", a bold defense of Christian psychology. |
Alexander of Hales, a master degreed theologian, about 1200 give or take, wrote something, I think it is called "Disputed Questions (of course in Latin) and he says, and again I have to quote liberally, as I am too lazy to look it up, but I will if you want me to......"man by his nature is free, that freedom of choice resides both in the intellect and in the will"....
This guy is a 13th century theologian, and says...man BY HIS NATURE....the significance of which is that he did not say by god's will, or the divine creator, or the highest authority, or any other such thing.......
and he also said that choice, which I take to mean expression, resides BOTH in the brain and the heart, as the heart was thought to be a directive organ, though a lot of latin speakers are going to dispute me on this.
Now, also realize that I am trying to put things in everyday language, and I cannot know what either writer truly meant when they put pen to paper.
And, I am not going to bore anyone else by writing further, but if anyone likes, I will recount a history of how "free will" was thought of in various times past.
But for now,
Peace and Love,
Marty and Lucky, Poppy and Sissy...halcyon cats
Location: United Kingdom
|Dear Marty - now there's a splendid idea! If you are willing to go to so much trouble, your study could provide us with a wonderful comparison - I hope - of how humankind over the centuries has slowly grown in spiritual understanding of its own true nature and destiny. Starting with what little we once had and finishing up where we are now. I look forward to your findings with great interest. With love - Aquarius|
|Seeing life as a mix of the material world and the spiritual one as a quant mechanic reality - as i do - the issue of free will becomes as dualistic as our total reality is. |
In the material world I believe that our free will is reduced insofar that whenever we make a decision we have no other choice than to choose the one we finally end up with - which is a deterministic view in line with Spinoza and Kirkegaard. We are, as I see it, conditioned to make the choices we make, just believing we are thinking of our own, in the moment as well as strategically.
As hard as it is to study and grasp the concept whether an electron is a wave or a particle, it is as confusing to experience the both sides of our reality simultaneously.
So, beyond our conditionings our will is affected by all the input we do get from not only the other side of our own awareness, but also from all the more mundane 'leakage' we more or less unconsciously are picking up from people around us and the ones we are closer to, pretty much regardless of distance - not even to mention everything else in this world which (and who) 'speaks' to us outside of our regular 6 senses (including balance which now is a medical sense in its own merit). In my mind I see these added senses as part of the literal meaning of "The Common SENSE" (sensing the atmosphere in a room one enter or noticing that people one just has been thinking of is calling or mailing, to mentioning a few simple examples, etcetera etcetera).
As I see it, the future for the free will is limited, at least until someone has come up with a workable explanation on how to deal with our respective conditionings in this world, fully understanding the properties of our individual spiritual awareness as well as to deal with the impact of others 'leakage' without becoming isolated in this world that after all is build on total co-dependence, whether we like it or not. I am though personally pretty sure the two latter influences follows as strict laws of nature as the universe we know through our major 6 senses do (and the helping techniques we have for them).
Somehow is the concept of free will though linked to our egos, hence a necessity sprung out of our fear of not being in control, so maybe it isn't so bad to just accept that we don't have any - instead giving ourselves the peace and pace needed to work on fighting/releasing our inner fears.
Edited by Spiritualfun 12/28/2007 7:27 PM
|I'll have to run to an appointment, but I believe you are partly right there. We may freely choose between a few basic ideas, but hardly opposites unless we are cleansed of all our conditionings (which probably is an impossible task to fully accomplish). But just by freeing ourselves of the most obvious ones we are bound to become more open for others, and less judgmental in the moment the way we 'value' everything around us. We can choose to strive in a certain direction, but not to fully become it, sort of.|
|I'd love to hear some thoughts on how free will and the Law of Attraction work together. If we have a "pre-destined" route to follow, and our free will, or choice can steer us off that path, then how does manifesting things you want come into play? |
For example, let's say there is a married man. He loves his family but comes across someone else who he desires. Has he created this situation? Or is a "test" (as aschneider mentions) during his pre-destined route? If he likes the thought of being with this other person, then wouldn't he continue to create that situation through manifestation?
|Having been blessed, or cursed, with a few close relationships, and many more that could have led to one if I wasn't 'spoken for' at the time, I believe there are lots of people with whom we naturally connect all the way, also sexually. |
Since I am not an unfaithful person by default, it has so far not been a problem to make the choice that it isn't very smart to continue to nurture any further encounters with such a person. I have always seen it as a sign that the existing relationship need some spicing up when it has happened.
But loving several people mentally - why wouldn't that be possible? The trick is to stop oneself with the new ones before they become wrecking and hurting.
Location: NE Ohio
|We always want what we cannot have. (till we have it) |
It's when you are content with what you do have, that makes it great.
I was a firm believer of loving more than one person, but i didn't have a true connection. (or lost it)
I feel we are meant to change if we grow. Love should always be involved and if our loved ones do not change when we do, or vice versa, then our time for change is then.
Now i still believe that, but i also believe i am with my true soul mate. I have no desire to look at anything else, because i am extremely satisfied and fulfilled with what i have now.
I have had both ways, so i understand both feelings.
I do believe i used law of attraction to find my husband i have now. I did use repetition and mantra to bring him into my life.
It worked like you wouldn't believe. (a little too much) but that is another story~ on being careful what you attract.
"We always want what we cannot have. (till we have it)"
DocJ..you always say such poetic things!
This is not on the topic at all, and may sound strange, but I have always wanted to have a boat-load of money! If I had such amounts of money, the only thing I would change is that I would not rent anymore, but would buy a house. No, not a McMansion, just something suitable for me and some cats and some tons of books. I wouldn't replace Scarlett (that is my 2000 Chevy Lumina) unless and until she can no longer go from point a to point b and back. But, I would like to have a nice kitchen, and a garden, so I can grow my own herbs, as fresh herbs are much better in cooking than the dried stuff, or the store bought stuff, which is all ready pretty old and usually treated with Perma-Fresh, or some other such chemical.
As long as I have enough money to live on, the rest of it....I would give it away...as it means absolutley nothing to me.
For example, every Saturday, I drive by what is now called "Elizabeth House"; an offspring of the House of Ruth.....I remember when a family used to live in that house....and it was not in good shape then. It has declined further over the years ....the ladies that run it don't have any money. But, the house provides a valuable service. Suppose I could hop out of Scarlett and say, "here ya go.....take a million dollars and fix this dump up, my complements." We have a "no kill" animal shelter in Baltimore County...this costs a lot of money to maintain...suppose I could just drop a mill or two on their doorstep....?
Oh, and no money, zero dollars, would go to institutionalized "charitable" orgs, such as, American Cancer....I mean, they have been in existence ever since I was young, and with all the money and all the time they have had...what have they done??
But, then again, every Labor Day, I pledge some money to Jerry's Kids! Why? Not because my sister has MS, but because I like Jerry Lewis, as his movies gave us, as young children, living bleak lives , an opportunity to laugh.
Peace and Love to all,
Marty and some cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, Sissygirl
Location: NE Ohio
|Your not alone in your feelings M. |
I know it sounds sad, that i want something i always had, but no longer have it. So when i make my money. I want to buy a boat. I love the water. I was raised on the water and we used to always be out there swimming, skiing and just enjoying nature. There is nothing like being out on the lake, floating and smelling the water, tree's and fresh air. Seeing a storm come in, and throwing up the top while trying to get back to the cabin in the woods. It's been so long since i felt that, i guess i did cherish it while i had it, but sure do miss it now that i don't.
I did have the good spoiled life. But i didn't have a connection with a loved one, so i gave it up to have love. It's like starting over, but worth every bit of it.
I would love to have the money to pay for my kids college education. If i have extra, i would love to be able to give more too. I do already donate to MS. I walked in the walk-a-thon, my sister has MS too. We do it every year to help raise money for that.
I also remember the funny movies with Jerry Lewis. Laughing heals, yes you are right on with that one. I think i will use free will to bring in more humor, which will in turn heal more people, which will then make us healthy to be able to make more funds, so we can enjoy some serenity, and enjoyable exercise, to promote health and well being.
It all fits....
Location: In the One
|Do I really have free will when I find myself reacting to the world unconsciously, from old beliefs that have been programmed into me by society, my family? |
The layers of this unconscious behavior go very very deep.
If the Enneagram, the Archetypes, the Astrology types, the Personality types all make up the fabric of our inborn personality, what choice did I have in this lifetime over that?
Is that who I really am?
Did the infant me choose the circumstances of my life? Did not those circumstances mold my beliefs about myself and my life?
Am I nothing but an automaton?
The only thing truly free about me seems to be awareness itself.
Why is this a question? How could we not have free will to choose this or that? Even if it is only a propensity to choose this over that. Even the God of the Judeo-Christians demands that we
"Choose this day whom you will serve. "
Nothing but ramblings here folks. No certainties. Time to quiet the mind.
Location: NE Ohio
|Forums are always about rambling... outlets, explaining to others how you feel. Regardless if it's true, fact or proven. Not much of the metaphysical field is proven, due to it being beyond physics. We have no perfect explanation. As humans, we are so limited in our thoughts, due to being programed of such limits. So yes, i agree... we are programed so much, which causes us to lose our spiritual true self. But through experience of the divine, we can get it back, and will. |
I also believe that each of us is shown our own proof, if we can handle it, or ask for it. Shown proof of at least intelligence beyond our physical bodies. Through having conversations with spirit guides, or relatives whom you know are dead, does tend to bring one to the conclusion that there is more than this. Experiencing this for ones self, is the answer.
I think knowing there is FREE WILL, then puts the responsibility on each individual. I know one thing, i get tired of people saying that they didn't ask to be born in the circumstances they were born in. YET, I believe different. I do believe we chose to be born with the circumstances we are born into. Just to experience all there is. It helps us learn different circumstances.
Do i have proof? NOPE.... i just know for myself. I really don't care if others believe me, or feel it too. I for one love the feeling of knowing and that is good enough for me. I do WANT others to experience what i have. I have been blessed to have been given such spiritual experiences. It's been a very enlightening ride.
Love and Light
Edited by Supernatural3 1/9/2008 6:12 PM
|There is actually a third alternative - That we both have free will and don't have it, simultaneously. |
Omjahs 'ramblings' made me see it clearer.
We can freely choose to challenge our respective beliefs, even if it is harder and requires more WILL POWER the deeper they are programmed and cemented.
All, for instance armed, people of the world COULD theoretically suddenly come to the conclusion that more violence isn't the solution to the problems between people of different backgrounds, and act on it by putting down their arms - What would be required in each individual for such a miracle to happen?
All religious people and atheists of the world COULD theoretically suddenly come to the conclusion that it is a bizarre thought that their specific faith is the only really true faith on earth, and then act on it by starting to study all the other faiths closer - What would be required in each fundamental individual for such a miracle to happen?
An enormous amount of courage and will power to withstand their own inner fears of the consequences of such a FREE decision - all the way of being shot by foes not yet 'transformed', or executed by ones own for chickening out - at worst and for the sake of the discussion.
However, if all people, in a secluded group or world wide, suddenly was salvages from every inch of their fear of death - simultaneously for instance just knowing 'by heart' that life and death are 'siblings' which can't exist without the other, and as factually knowing that our lives here are only a 'field trip', a day at the beach, in our total life span - what would happen then? What kind of behaviors would we then be able to get rid of as embarrassing, immature and inefficient to make the most of our time 'at the beach' to become as lust filled and rewarding as possible?
It's somehow back at the 'ego control' isn't it - together with a lack of time perspective? It generates an illusion of free will, where the only real free will, the one to challenge ones inner fears and to muster the will power to keep them at bay, is oppressed by the illusion that our free will is something that has anything to do with what is outside of ourselves - hence we both have it and we don't as we haven't defined where it is in effect and what the boundaries for it are.
Edited by Spiritualfun 1/9/2008 11:02 PM
Location: NE Ohio
|yes, very deep thinking indeed. I love it.... |
I think we are only limited while in human form. Its a vacation of experience that we chose. Then we go back home... to higher intelligence, to remember everything we forgot. We willed ourselves to this experience, because we needed to feel it, in order to learn compassion for another who experiences. At least i think that is why I did it. I cannot say for others.
Maybe this earth life is what some call or consider HELL. Denial is also hell. Ego can be our best friend, and enemy all at once.
Perhaps our intelligence is linked, but separate. As our phone lines all go to the same local building, but we have privacy for the most part. It's our own choice to pick up and use the line, connect, or hang up. It's always been our choice... and that is why we experience so much crime. That is a choice too. A bad one... but a choice. No choice is ever taken away, even if our physical body is held captive, we can still choose to mentally leave. We choose to be happy or sad. We choose to live, love, feel, see, hope, etc.
Sometimes i cannot wait to go back... to unveil more information. But i really like it here, for now.
|I must disagree with you a bit. |
Your list of free choices could only be free if the circumstances for them to be free exist, including the will power to take an other route than the one one is on the edge to enter. Backing off takes energy, so in that respect we are like big ships, causing terribly long brake marks.
i.e., it must be much more complicated than what you are giving word for, and utterly individual which choices that are easy to take, and which are not.
Group pressure is one of the strongest forces that is, as few if any, can withstand them if strong enough - if insulated from their regular environment and mind frame. "Ending up in bad company" is really not a choice for the one lacking will power and the understanding that (s)he is on the way entering such company. No much free will in that.
Most European countries and areas has much lower crime rates than the US average, despite much softer punishment and shorter sentences - and definitely no capital punishment which is abolished in all of the European countries. If what you say would be true for people with criminal 'inclinations', the opposite ought to be seen. Humankind will discuss free will into eternity unless we learn to sort, define and understand what is what - or am I wrong here?
Not that I wont say that this life isn't a hell, but for the sake of the discussion I want to make a few points on the concept.
Living ones life in many of the most popular vacation places around the world would be considered hell for the majority that goes there willingly for a week or two - at least I know several such places. And for others my hell places would be heaven, and the other way around. It's a relative concept, also within this reality as such.
The good news, in a traditional view of heaven and hell, is that IF a heaven exists, there can't be a hell.
It's plain logic and the reason is that a requisite for a heaven is that when there, one must have some kind of higher awareness, knowledge and understanding for it to be what has been promised. It would for most with some empathy become horrible to know that some people were sentenced into eternal misery, wouldn't it? Making such a heaven into hell for them, hence there can't be a hell.
Furthermore, if this is hell, in reference to 'the other side', can you imagine what the 'crime' rate at that other side then must be, given the number of living creatures on this earth alone?
I believe this is a 'vacation adventure place', and we are on our way to mess it up really good - even though safety and life expectancy has increased incredibly during the last couple of hundred years, relatively speaking. And I agree that one sometime is longing home too, but really only when one get caught by a too short time perspective, at least that is what can happen for me. When expanding the time perspective any hurdle and 'swamp' seems to become bearable and even interesting.
BTW, Jill, are you sure it is 'deep thoughts'? Maybe we have defined that wrongly too, so what about high ones? :-)
Edited by Spiritualfun 1/10/2008 9:18 AM
|Omjah, your post is really great. You are really defining the scope of the problem well.|
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