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Aquarius
Posted 1/13/2008 1:35 PM (#3461 - in reply to #3459)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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'Aquarius embraced the idea I had about a recounting of the historical aspects of the concept of free will ... Any suggestions?'

Dear Marty - nobodoy else is a wonderfully qualified to carry out such a study as you are. So, don't procrastinate, get going! With love - Aquarius

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Aquarius
Posted 1/14/2008 10:34 AM (#3464 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Dear Spiritualfun,
I would like to share with you a few of my reflections of what I meant when I said in my previous posting to you that we are all here to find healing and to become healers in our own right.


CHIRON – THE WOUNDED HEALER

As many of us are aware by now, we are spirit and soul, temporarily encased in matter. However, for wise evolutionary reasons it became necessary in the past that in our conscious state we should loose all knowledge of our immortality and oneness with God. Because of this, since time immemorial, humankind has lived with legends of heroes, who gave up their immortality to become earthlings. Teachings that have their origin in the great wisdom of our Divine parents have always been with us. As mentioned before, they are known as the Ancient wisdom and came into our world to help humankind to make some sense of our earthly existence. During past ages they came to us in the form of myths. As we gradually evolved and could grasp more of their underlying esoteric meaning of the teachings they concealed, the tales and stories given to us became more sophisticated, shall we say?

The myth of Chiron, the wounded healer, illustrates this better than anything else. Ever since this tale came into our world, it has been trying to tell us about none other than you and me. When we left the state of oneness with the Source, to begin the long journey of developing as individual beings, soul received a deep wound which has never healed. Each one of us is a wounded healer, waiting to find release from this evolutionary phase again and be healed. As we re-awaken to the knowledge of our true self, this process gets going with great strength. It gathers ever more momentum through our steadily increasing awareness that our physical body is but a shell for our true and Highest Self; and that the spirit of the living God dwells within every cell and atom of our whole being, including our physical body. God is always with us; God has never left us and experiences everything with us. When we suffer, God suffers with us; when we enjoy ourselves, God does the same; and when we are healing, God is healing us and with us. Best of all, because of our inner connection with all life, when we are healing, everything throughout the whole of Creation heals with us.

There is a wound deep within everybody’s soul consciousness that refuses to heal. It was caused by the separation from our Great Parents, when it was decided that we should descend into matter and develop into individual beings. Ever since then, our soul has been living with this pain. There always has been within every soul a great yearning and longing for its true home. But only now has the time come that each one of us being guided back to our roots and origin, to be re-united with the Source of all Life. And that is why each one who is presently on the Earth, each in their own right, has the potential of becoming a healer, seed carrier and bringer of light. In spiritual terms, light means wisdom and knowledge. What then is a healer? It is simplicity itself! We fulfil that function each time we help another so see their way forward in life more clearly; when we help someone to understand that bit better who they are and why they are here, why people and things come into everybody's life and leave it again; when we help someone to see that there is no death. We are healers when we offer someone a shoulder to lean or cry on, maybe a hand to hold; when we bring renewed hope to someone by empathising with them, maybe helping them to view a difficult situation from a different perspective. Healers do these things not because someone tells them to, but because that is what they want to do. They are following an inner urge to be true to their real nature, which is love. Having found some measure of light, they feel the need to share and help others to do the same for themselves.

With Love and Light,
Aquarius

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Supernatural3
Posted 1/14/2008 8:08 PM (#3467 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I am sure you are correct, seems we all do heal those we love, even if we don't try... it just happens. The power of love~ As it was our choice though to love them.
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/15/2008 4:24 AM (#3468 - in reply to #3464)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Aquarius, thank you, that is a very good description that resonate pretty much spot on with my own experience. Word wise I have put it as if everything living is sent out as explorer 'ships' from a 'mother ship', at which the communication between them get distorted, but we all bear within us a 'survival kit' of memories which we are more or less connected to. However, this memory connection together with the intermittent flashes of connectivity make us to search for structure and reason in more or less screwed up religious and spiritual ways (no pun intended to anyone - I am here searching too). Looking for simplicity was one of the lessons learned from my 'trip', though. Everything spiritual (in its broadest sense) was said and shown much more straight forward and intuitive than I could have ever been able to come up with by my own wits and imagination.

Its an incredible interesting puzzle though.

Have Sun!
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Aquarius
Posted 1/15/2008 9:25 AM (#3469 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I couldn't agree more with both of you! And yes, spiritualfun, this life and our existence in it is an incredibly puzzling and wonderful thing! We are here to make some sense of it and any knowledge we gather is stored in the memory bank of our own soul, that of the group we are spending our present lifetime in, and also in the great soul of our world and finally the one of the whole of Creation. No experience is ever wasted, somebody somewhere learns something from it. If that ain't wonderful, please tell me what is?

With love - Aquarius

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mruppert
Posted 1/15/2008 11:01 AM (#3470 - in reply to #3459)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Spiritualfun - 2008-01-13 11:25 AMMartin: ldn't be great for others). The development of belief systems are somehow much more an effect of pedagogic problems than anything that has anything with the core traits and values of humankind as such to do. We need to learn much more about ourselves, generally, individually and holistically before being able to create a somewhat pertinent model for our lives and potential 'bigger' purpose - that's what I believe.

Hi Spearitchewal Phun.....
     I think it was Cause who said, in another forum, that he has a (very valid, my words) sense that humankind, on some scale, is experiencing a turn to spiritualism with the coming of the age of Aquarius, (the time, not the person we know here...a little humor, and as usual very feeble).
     I would remind all that this search for a belief system (and I argue that it is a belief system) is not new.
     For a great portion of human history, peoples lives were filled with animism, and spiritualism; as the predominant means by which to live life with meaning of some sort; and answer those very difficult questions that life presents. This is true on both an individual and societal scale.
     But, just as happens to us now, a new idea came along that subjugated the then current idea. The most profound one was monotheistic religion, and I don't think anyone would argue when I say that Judaism, Islam and Christianity had the most powerful impact on us of all time. Of the three, all began life as "mystical" religions,  with two others far moreso than Islam. Hierachical structures de-emphasized the mysticism in favor of dogma. Still, all three purport to teach principles that are indeed, "golden rules" and read splendidly as a course and code for living.
     The problem (as I see it)  is not the pedagogy, it is the very simple fact that  all three FAILED as belief systems that people live by. Islam is not a movement of peace; Christians routinely break one or more of the ten commandments; and Jews routinely break the hundreds of commandments embodied in the writings that are handed down. Religion, overall, fails to do what it set out to do.
     Some of us recognize this failure and seek another path. But that path is, part and parcel, that which came before the rise and dominance of the three great monotheistic belief systems.
    
Peace and Love,
Marty and Cats (with spirits and souls; after all millions of ancient Egyptians can't be wrong, or can they?)

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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/15/2008 9:20 PM (#3471 - in reply to #3469)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Aquarius, the consequence of what you are saying is wonderfully simple as it solves the ethic dilemma of the free will.

If we assume that evil actions is a consequence of fear (as well as fear ridden actions out of good intent) then the whole issue of revenge can be left out of the equation. The problems people are facing with regards to each other is simply a matter of different levels of the understanding that that is the case. Like finding oneself navigating in waters that suddenly to ones perception has become full of hidden rocks beneath the surface. In the beginning of experience this sensitivity I got upset that people I have known and trusted for so long were lying all the time. I just hadn't seen it and hence I naturally started to question my initial intuitive conclusions of that it was the case - hidden rocks appeared on my otherwise well known sea chart, making me both offended and a bit paranoid regarding these people, especially when I noticed that they had noticed that I could see straight through them.

I believed they had changed while the whole 'problem' was created by my better vision. It was terrible confusing and in a few cases so bad that I couldn't excuse them for having become such liars. Now I can see why they 'had' to lye, and that adding my taught way of handling such a behavior just made things worse. The problem being that we can only rely on our own sea chart, for our own actions, realizing that everybody else has their individual own chart to navigate from. The opposite being the ultimate cause of discord and also the ultimate egotism among humans.

Martin: "Islam is not a movement of peace".

And where does that judgmental conclusion come from? You don't think there is at least as many militant Christians and Jews around? What about the military hawks in the U.S and Israel, just as a starter? The majority of the Muslims are not involved in any warfare, either. As absolute most wherever, they mind their own business and try to survive as good as they can given their particular individual circumstances and limitations. We are all 'victims' of our respective systems, and I am sure many older Germans, Russians and Chinese can vouch for that, just mentioning a few that has really stood out during the last 70 - 90 years. Who has the right to judge Americans or others from the Western World for raping our common resources, just as one little example of the same kind of victimization? The concept that any change starts with one self really is true, but what shall one do with the ones that don't dare to start their own inner process of fear cleansing - beat them to it?

Edited by Spiritualfun 1/15/2008 9:24 PM
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mruppert
Posted 1/15/2008 11:10 PM (#3472 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi Spear-It...and all;
     Ah, I see that making things short "forum-bytes" leads to misunderstanding.
     You are absolutley right in what you say. There are MORE militant Christians and Jews than those of the Islamic faith. History proves that to be the case. But, that was not my point.
My point was that any and all of these belief systems have not acheived what they set out to do, as foundational belief systems. They just did not (do not)  work in the context of their (our) "milieu".
     Religion has, indeed, failed us....and it's historical "next, greatest, best" movement, that is known as science has also done the same.
      Science, from the "Age of Enlightenment" on was transformed from the blend of mysticism and science to pure empirical science, but the empiricism also went awry. We grew to an age where people "feared" science, and that is very prevalent today. We fear stem cell research, we fear cloning, we fear genetic manipulation.
     Should we? I dunno!
     But, based on historical evidence, perhaps we should. As, it seems, that all major advances in science have had "unexpected consequences". The pure efficiency and economy that the Nazis were able to exterminate unto oblivion 6 million people is a tribute to science and industry, but abhorrent to humankind. What is really ironic, is that they did it in the name of a religion which was a non-religion, an anti-religion, but nontheless, of a mystical nature. Oh yes, I know that that will rattle a lot of cages, and many will get their hackles up, but that is proven historical fact, though most will not accept this.
     Science, since Einstein, gave us the promise of an unlimited source of power, negating our need for fossil fuel. Yet, it's first application was a product of devastating destruction. The USA was the first, and only, country to use it as an offensive weapon. When the devastation was known, in all it's ramifications, we had a "New Age" of movies, literature, political thought and public discourse....the Saucer movies of an alien civilization coming to Earth to save the universe from destruction comes to mind, "Klaatu barada nikto" if you know what I mean...and I bet DocJ knows that!
      My point is that two major things have FAILED us in the times that they reign. Religion has not been unseated, as a matter of fact it has become even stronger, as fundamentalism, of any variety, it  is even stronger in the 20th and going into the 21st century than ever before. You have to remember and understand that early religions, even with the names I have given them, were, indeed, MYSTICAL! I will not back down from that argument. Fundamentalism is a 20th century contrivance.
Why?
Because, the promise of science has also failed us....and the gut reaction is to turn back to that in which we feel the most comfort. Science was, at one time, dedicated to make us feel more at ease, to alleviate discomfort, and to advance the ideals and existence of life. It, however, now frightens us, as if we have unleashed an "out of control" beast that might prey upon us. Is that far from the truth?
Sprite-fun, go back to your Mary Shelly, a young woman who wrote a book that was most out of character for the time, revolutionary, and quite uncanny....The Modern Prometheus, aka Frankenstein. What a remarkable woman!!!!!!!! True, Galvani had twichted frogs legs with the application of electricity, and the "cabinets of curiosities" floated around Europe......but she wrote of the creation of life from that which is inanimate, and that which has had past life, and that there would be a manifestation of the past into the present. And, look at the moral message of the book, as the monster was truly not the villian.
     As the quantum school of physics starts to unveil the true mysteries of science, it becomes even more frightening than before. Simply because quantum hypotheses challenge traditional, historical, views of all we believe, no matter what we believe, YET, it explains why we believe the way we do.    
It is only now, that we start to see, with fresh eyes, the blending of science, religion, and spirituality. BUT, it is not new at all!
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet..hat's off to Willie Shakespeare who said it better than I could ever say it!
With Peace and Love,
Marty and Sleepy Cats, Luck, Pop and Siss
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/16/2008 1:52 AM (#3473 - in reply to #3472)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Thanks for the clarifications, Martin, I concur to most of what you are saying.

What we fear isn't the technologies though, is it? Isn't it our sound distrust in humanity that is the problem?

Of course, as a person from a part of the world in which hand guns are heavily regulated I somehow contradict myself there, as the number of people killed by shootings consequently hardly doesn't exist around here (but murders as such are low too). On the other hand, liberal access to certain technologies show many humans aren't human enough to handle them..... when the fear kicks in and the urge to protect oneself grows too strong - but it goes for financial power plays as well as arms, doesn't it? But such fear isn't new - we have never been so free in thought than what we are now, but have never been shown so much negative info from around the world either.

Despite the fact that we know that smoking can cause lung cancer, do you know how many percent of the total number of smokers and recent ones that get it? It's LESS than one percent! In combination with asbesthose it's an almost 100 percent hit rate though.

How many people have died from the bird flu, and from the mad cow disease or terrorism? Around 150 for the two first and less than 10.000 from terrorist attacks worldwide since WWII... IN TOTAL. How many die from drowning and how many kids die from starvation in the world? 300.000 people drown ANNUALLY, and 30.000 kids starve to death....PER DAY.

If looking into what is done to protect ourselves our priorities are pretty screwed up, one must say. Can one even imagine how much energy has been spent in vain for us to stay safe, and what strange effect such 'safety fascism' has caused - the latest being the 'anti-co2-fascism' that is cascading over the world? (the three main green house GASES are to > 98 % water vapor, < 1 % co2 and < 1 % methane. Of that single not even 1 % co2, less than 1 % is man made giving our impact to become a 'staggering' 1:10.000 of the total. The particles from our smoke stacks and open fire places aren't even accounted for, and they certainly has a huge impact too - while it is shown that added co2 to the nature gives a direct production increase with up to 200 percent depending on crop or forest types, with an increased output of oxygen in the process...of course).

Your point on the fear involved in modern science is both valid and highly interesting I think. I have for many years, long before my metaphysical experiences started, have had a hunch that there is a serious flaw in the academic principles we abide to. People within that system are so afraid of loosing face that it not only affect their own ability of thinking outside of the box, but also the ability for generations to come if they are just influential enough in their own field of expertise.

Your note on a shift in attitudes is also most accurate I believe. I dare to talk about healing and metaphysical phenomenas with my peers and friends, just for starters. I believe it started in the late '60s though, with the environmental movement which must be the biggest and fastest attitude shift in world history. The general idea that our local environment is important for us is though an easy sell as absolute most can 'sense' the truth in such a message, and I believe that the environmental awareness has spilled over into the metaphysical awareness too - just as everyone take it for granted that they can sense specific atmospheres when entering a room with other people, or having experienced that someone they have just been thinking of suddenly is on the phone.

A question on a more personal level though. How come that you don't honor peoples choice of an alias, by consequently making up own alternatives for them when addressing them? There are numerous reasons for people to not use their own name. From fear of becoming stalked, to risk a position or as in my case, as a test. No one in here can from my posts with certainty know from what part of the world I am, not know what my cultural background is and even not know of what gender I am - any attempt to classify who Spiritualfun 'is' would from my posts be plain guess work, and I want to see if that makes a difference, for myself when articulating my thoughts, as well as potentially in the reactions from the rest of you in here (from what I am used to when not being so cryptic about myself).

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Supernatural3
Posted 1/16/2008 9:04 AM (#3474 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Both have very valid comments. I think it's "organized" religion that has failed. But it has brought about a choice to be spiritual non-religious, due to the corrupt parts of it all. I do feel we are in Age of Aquarius.

I do have problems when it comes to some religious type of teaching.... like the Quran.
Muslims call America "The Great Satan". Muslim males are instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34). Their religion teaches that of one thing... Their way, or highway. They put bombs in children, and any of them are willing to die while killing as many Americans as they can, from their Quran Teachings (programming). How in the heck can this be good teaching? I know I am talking about the terrorist portion and I would hope not all feel this way. I really feel for many who are stuck in that kind of environment and would hope it's much different than that which is exposed to us.

I had a client who was Muslim last week. She was going through trouble in her marriage. She said their belief system (Quran) is the original and remains unchanged. She stated that all others have been changed and is no longer correct (meaning ours). Even their marriage vows, the woman has to agree to all kinds of things, as well as to be be obedient while the man says very little, the male side is so cold (Look it up). The man is the only one who can get a divorce by just saying the word "divorce" three times and that is it. They are divorced by Muslim law. If they live in the US, they have to go through our court system still and I don't know how that works. But, it's the Man that thinks he is far superior in the Muslim religion. I just do not understand a religion that treats their women like cattle. But, It shows in the Wedding Vows. It shows in the manorisms, It also shows their judgment against Americans (Christians and Jews).

I did not treat my client with disrespect, or any different than any other client, but i did feel very sorry for her. I feel sorry for any person brain washed into anything that limits the true self. I do not hate the Muslims, I think they are very closed minded and stuck in a world that existed thousands of years ago, but will not adapt.

As far as no guns in Australia. Wow... it's harsh alright. I have a best friend of mine who moved to Australia to get married. She and Her new husband were going to move back to America to live, but because he had a pellet gun, they took it and slapped him with a felon charge. He only had it for a week and was getting ready to register it, but had gotten married, which threw off his schedule. Anyway, now he is having a heck of a time trying to get a passport. He cannot come to America now, due to that problem with a pellet gun. I think that is a little strict. I personally have several pellet guns, as well as other regular guns. I don't feel it's the gun that kills, it's the untrained / uneducated man that pulls the trigger. But that is my own opinion, at which i can understand that putting a gun in the hands of the wrong person would spell catastrophe, so i am torn both ways. I just think it's a little overkill. But other than that, I would love to go to Australia some day. It's beautiful there and the people are so nice. We do have a lot of crime here in the US. Thankfully it's not much in my own area. However, my sisters best friend and her husband was walking out of a restaurant a month ago, and got shot. Some idiot was shooting at random people and her hubby was shot right in the calf. He said he didn't even know he was hit until a couple minutes later. They have nicknamed him "Fiddy" now. Like the rap singer that got shot that goes by "50 cent".... LOL, anyway... he has fully recovered and was lucky. But crime strikes us everywhere. SHAME- I call it ignorance.

Thank God we have come into a spiritual time. It's needed for sure~





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Omjah
Posted 1/16/2008 4:47 PM (#3475 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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One belief that I have considered is that there really are no individuals at all. If there is reincarnation, there is no unbroken line of individuality, but simply a conglomeration of possibility and potentiality. It is one Self having many experiences in the universe of time and matter. We are simply projections of the one Self putting on a play. Our sense of individuality is part of the fun of it all, forgetting thoroughly who we really are. When I meditate on this I tend to transcend most states of joy and melt into the unity of all that is. What this may mean for living in this world of illusion is an extension of compassion to everything and every one, a recognition of the interrelationship of everything, an end to anxiety and fear and isolation. or pure utter detachment and amorality! Will is only a factor in this reality as part of the drama and excitement of living as an intelligent social being.

Edited by Omjah 1/16/2008 4:49 PM
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Omjah
Posted 1/16/2008 8:03 PM (#3478 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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This Silence is not heartless,
This kind of despair is sublime.
Now of what earthly good am I?

Om
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Omjah
Posted 1/16/2008 8:08 PM (#3479 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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I am a fool in your eyes
With a far away look
While you give attention to your 'here.'

Om

Edited by Omjah 1/16/2008 8:10 PM
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mruppert
Posted 1/19/2008 3:13 AM (#3492 - in reply to #3474)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Chill Jill, or Chilly Jilly.....much of what you say is true. But, Islam is not the only religion or belief system that has mistreated or mistreats women. Historically, most do!
As you well know ( at least I think you do ); the movement to accord women the dignity of personhood is relatively recent. I can't really find anything before the early 1800's that indicates otherwise, in our modern day scenario.
What is of value for observation, is that the role of women has changed and changed rapidly by historical standards.
Let me ask you about some current cultural perceptions:
      1) Young and skinny is somehow beautiful!
     And, let me stop right here to await your ideas as to the "why".
     But, let me just say that this perception was not held, oh say, even 50 years ago. To be skinny was thought to be sickly. To be young was thought to be a period of innocence, with little bearing or interaction in an 'adult" world.
     Whaddya think, Doc? What caused this change in perception?

Peace n' luv,
Marty, Luckylee, Poppyhead and Sissygirl
 
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/19/2008 10:18 AM (#3495 - in reply to #3492)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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mruppert - 2008-01-19 3:13 AM

Chill Jill, or Chilly Jilly.....much of what you say is true. But, Islam is not the only religion or belief system that has mistreated or mistreats women.


LOL, True.... but adaption and common sense, is what happened to most as far as how people should be treated at least here in the states. I feel the reason many think it's healthier to be skinny, is due to all the health problems and significants that comes with being bigger. AND -> Media has a big part in everything. All the TV's show is models for everything. They don't show bigger women much on TV. It's rare. When there wasn't mush media, we didn't have as much depression.... (or we didn't know about it). Now we hear about everything. There is no such thing as privacy, should something happen out of the ordinary.

Times are good, yet i feel they are less simple, and chaotic. However, more open minded than ever before. Our world is dynamic not static.... It has to be, because we are.

My school studies right now are all about "The developing person". I haven't learned much yet... because they are trying to cram way too much info in my brain, and it's now on overload. Which means technically, i am now in hypnosis.... I wish someone would read to me out load..... man.... that would work at this point. Distance education can be hard with no instructors to help. I have NO idea what the exam will be on, out of four chapters. It would be nice to have a review for the exam. But there isn't one. Exam is tomorrow, deadline. EEEEK

I guess i "pick on" the Islamic religion, because they choose not to adapt. There for they are attempting to remain static, and it's against everything Earth life is about. Adaption and change is clearly needed in order to not be dysfunctional.

Blessings~




Edited by Supernatural3 1/19/2008 10:21 AM
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