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|Hi to all:|
I just wanted to write this as it is topical (in the news all the time) and it is also very pertinent. Over the course of time, we have made war acceptable. We have made war pretty. We have made war fair. And, for those of us in the United States, we have made it an entity that we don't really see or feel. We have also punished soldiers for exceeding some preordained and prescribed limit to what war is about.
If I were not lied to about the wars we fight, I might have a better understanding and, maybe, an affinity for them.
Since I am a historian, let me be blunt about it. In a bygone age, we fought many wars, and in most of them we killed "people", as that is the purpose of war....to kill people....not just soldiers of the opposing army, but PEOPLE. In WW2, the Germans bombed cities in England, France and Poland, indiscriminately. But, the Allies destroyed much of Germany in the same such scenario. Mass murder of people. And, the United States dropped not one, but two atomic bombs on Japan, killing untold numbers of civilians.
Today, we put soldiers in jail because they did something in contravention or contraindication of what they "should" have done.
I, personally, don't get this at all! If you want to fight a war, then you go out and kill people....if you don't want to do that...then DON'T FIGHT!!!!!!
Diplomacy has failed us, as we have no diplomats anymore.Take a good look, historically, at the great diplomats, and see how they craft peace! Where are such persons, now, that we need them?
Folks, I grew up in Brooklyn, NY and I know the Manhatten WTC twin towers very well. To see them fall had welled up a feeling that I cannot put into words. But, the Iraqis did not topple our towers.
How about we stop wasting our lives, time and money on such stupidity, and try to come to terms with those that did topple our towers?
We "so called" fight for freedom and democracy in Iraq...yet the constitution they established mandates a state religion of Islam (which I have nothing against)....but, is that FREEDOM?
What about the Jews, Catholics, Hindis and Daoists, and whose Islam?.....the Sunnis or the Shi'ites? What about the Zoroastrians?
All I ever can say is that we must give peace all the chances that it might have.....but when it fails us, we must not lie about our purpose, and must pursue our purpose with the deadly intent that it was meant to have.
Love and Peace to Everyone, all over the World,
|As of now, 10/9 1:43 am EST there have been 25 views and no responses. Sorta proves my point, in that we "accept" the way things are, and are not willing to change them. |
In 1970, kids were willing to change the way things were, and the kids at Kent State University (Ohio) and lest we forget Jackson, peacefully, but vociferously, protested against the war in Vietnam. The Ohio National Guard opened fire on unarmed students, and killed four. There is a picture of a young girl, Mary Ann Vecchio,(she was about 14) that captures a moment in a way that says way more than the images you see today of our "noble" effort in Iraq.
Look at her face, and look at her mouth, and discern the cry that she is uttering.....WHY?
Yours in Peace,
Location: Hirosaki, Japan
|A lot of those views are probably responses from me that I quit on after writing them. |
I wrote a lot of things on why i do some of the things i do in my life.
As you may know I'm in the military, if you knew me outside of this, you would think I was a radical anarchist.
I give myself to the Navy to serve my own private ends, I'm no were near patriotic, i leave that for people who don't see war.
But there is no good wars, and never a reason for killing masses of humans, there's nothing that anyone can say that will make me not believe that is fact, if they think they can, then enlist.
i feel as though i am fulfilling part of my own path in life by doing this, the travel and experiences i have had are very beneficial to me. i have traveled almost everywhere in south east Asia, many times, part of the private end i am serving...
I have meet some very great and inspiring people and some people that are more a kin to demons, but all the people i have met where friends of me, whether demon or Buddha, there really is no difference to me.
So, when it comes to war, there really is nothing for me to say except for no.
even though my business is war,which is not a road to peace, but to death.
Yes, I see the 'radical anarchist" in you; from the perspective of Sam's way.
I have many questions, but they are not appropriate to this forum, as they involve military garbage.
I wish others would get involved, doesn't anybody have, know, or think about men and women who are serving in the military, particulary in our most recent war in EyeRack?
Location: NE Ohio
|I only wonder what happens to people who kill so many people...metaphysically |
~I feel they go through a cleansing process, and tell of their experience, then help others, love some more, etc.
were they killed by those many people in so many previous lifetimes?
~I don't personally believe in Karma, but i do believe in choice to see what it feels like to be on the other side. All a choice!
what happen to dead people when they die from war?
~They could try to haunt those nasty people that hurt them, but chances are they are no longer feeling hurt and pain and will want to move on to better things.
do they haunt the politicians who messed up their life?
~I doubt it, they understand that in a few moments the politician will be around to see his own flaws too.
do people who die from war go to heaven or hell?
~They go where they want to go, or temporarily go where they THINK they deserve to go~ If they thought they deserved to go to hell, they will most likely put themselves there, until they realize how silly they were and move on to healing stages. Hell is simply lack of love, light or healing.
do politicians who start war go to heaven or hell?
~They go back to class~ Learn some more, experience all there is, and laugh at the silly stuff, and most likely think that they were actually trying to help some with their cause. Most politicians do that, due to wanting to make a positive change. They certainly do not set out to kill people. They would call this war a defensive strike. In their mind, it's justified to be the sole survivor.
what is it like to kill an ignorant person? what is it like to kill someone like jesus?
~I am sure it's not a good feeling to kill anyone.
jesus forgave those who killed them, but the ignorant person will probably not and have a right to some degree to get their debt straightened out whether we like it or not. universal will helps level out debts in a bigger picture the best way possible.
it is people who need to know how to mete out a debt in a more win-win way most likely. those who are ignorant will probably want revenge to mete out a debt, those who are more spiritually educated will want to teach the perpetrator to learn to be more responsible with their conduct in future and move on to a happier kind of living ... therefore a win-win for both parties
~Jesus isn't the only one who forgave those who killed him. We all have most likely been killed before, yet we don't run around looking to kill again. For every savior, there has to be a villain. There is no positive with out negative, the two go hand in hand. We just sure enjoy our positive side much more, for it's more pleasant to feel love than hate, but in all honesty, someone has to play the part or we wouldn't experience anything at all.
I personally don't like to talk about war, or politicians. I don't even like to vote, because i don't trust the lies told on TV to buy your vote. It's all corrupt and sheisty and all about money and power. I don't need that in my life. So i live the way i want to live, love my family and friends and concentrate on good things. My energy goes out to heal all.
Edited by Supernatural3 10/16/2007 7:40 AM
|Very well put Supernatural3. I agree that we all have been here many times and have probably experienced it all at this point. I think that we come into life with a rough outline of our environment. Some may agree to be guideposts for us, some may agree to be challenges for us. But it is all for learning on a much grander scale than what we see and feel with our physical bodies. I also feel that I do more for raising the frequency of the planet and those residing on her by loving the enemy than by hating the enemy and seeking revenge. For me to be able to look at violence perpetrated and see the light being within raises the energy of the planet thereby affecting all. This is extremely difficult much of the time but something I strive for in my life. It is the only way that I feel I really can do anything. I don't think we are in the same place we were in the 70's. It seems that my vote really doesn't matter on a material level. People do seem apathetic these days. Because we don't really feel the affects of war, like you say Marty. Much of the inspiration for the resistance in the 70's was the draft. At this point, it is still an all volunteer military. There is something to that, in our minds, or the minds of the people at large, it allows us that little window to not really get involved. It is so inconvenient and all. And my life is not really affected by this war, and so on and so on. Anyway, I feel that being "the light I wish to see in the world" I can have a substantial affect and be an example to others, who in turn can be an example to others and so on and so on. Just my thoughts :-) -Shantina|
Location: No I'm not impersonating a cat! I'm a laughing Owl
|Mruppert wrote: Where are such persons, now, that we need them? They are here but they are not the ones that our media and those in power value. A society is a sum total of it's values. That's why I get so discouraged and frustrated to see what's goind on today. Why do we exalt the call girl that slept with a governor and she is offered a million dollar contract? What message does this send to our young daughters who are trying to work their way through school, jobs, education, etc. Does it tell them no matter how smart you are, you are nothing more than a sex toy? Then and only then will you be worth $4300 an hour, or worth a million dollar contract? The sad thing is that there are plenty of people willing to purchase that edition of hustler, should it ever hit the stands. Why do we try to mitigate what that man did to his family and his daughters? What's really sick to me is that the call girl looks like one of his daughters, did anyone else notice that? Mruppert, wrote about war...in a society where the values are money, material wealth, and gluttony. Then I have to ask myself what's the real reason for the war? How could it be a spiritual war of freeing an oppressed people when, on a whole, our society does not do much to help it's own oppressed? Today I learned that while more than 2 million people (American Families) are losing their homes our government felt it was more important to bail out Bear Stearns. When is it more important to save an investment firm than two million families needing a roof over their heads? The response was that Bear Stearns is a vein of our economic livelihood. Interesting, because I bet if we polled most American families we would learn that many of them don't have anything to do with Bear Stearns, nor do many of them even know the name. The more correct statement is most likely, "Bear Stearns is the economic vein of the controlling wealth of this country, and the needs of the controlling wealth will always outweigh the needs of the common folk. The common folk for which this country is supposed to be comfort and sanctuary. |
So given the track record wouldn't be more logical and far more consistent that the war was for some form of material wealth, or some product that would lend to more material wealth? Who are the ones holding the stock options to these oil companies? Can I see a show of hands out there in UMS land?? I bet it's very few of the common folk of America. But a large percentage of our government representatives have dupliticious interests that do not serve the people of this country.
Many of us don't want to be at war. But until those of us who want that speak up, until those of us who hold dear the differing values than those that our currently represented here then our values will not be reflected upon this country as a whole. There must be a reverence for our old people, and our young men and women, there must be importance put upon enlightening one another to the right paths in life. Spiritual pursuits must not take a back seat to material pursuits, not personally, not in government or anywhere in this country. If our government was ran with more spirituality it would make it far more difficult to shed one drop of anyone's blood. Then I believe with new values we would again see an emergence of the diplomats that use both cognitive and emotional intelligence to make good sound decisions for this country.
Just some food for thought.
Peace to you Mruppert.
|Mruppert wrote: Where are such persons, now, that we need them? Theyare here but they are not the ones that our media and those in powervalue. A society is a sum total of it's values. That's why I get sodiscouraged and frustrated to see what's goind on today. Why do weexalt the call girl that slept with a governor and she is offered amillion dollar contract? What message does this send to our youngdaughters who are trying to work their way through school, jobs,education, etc. Does it tell them no matter how smart you are, you arenothing more than a sex toy? Then and only then will you be worth $4300an hour, or worth a million dollar contract? The sad thing is thatthere are plenty of people willing to purchase that edition of hustler,should it ever hit the stands. Why do we try to mitigate what that mandid to his family and his daughters? What's really sick to me is thatthe call girl looks like one of his daughters, did anyone else noticethat? Mruppert, wrote about war...in a society where the values aremoney, material wealth, and gluttony. Then I have to ask myself what'sthe real reason for the war? How could it be a spiritual war of freeingan oppressed people when, on a whole, our society does not do much tohelp it's own oppressed? Today I learned that while more than 2 millionpeople (American Families) are losing their homes ourgovernment felt it was more important to bail out Bear Stearns. When isit more important to save an investment firm than two million familiesneeding a roof over their heads? The response was that Bear Stearns isa vein of our economic livelihood. Interesting, because I bet if wepolled most American families we would learn that many of them don'thave anything to do with Bear Stearns, nor do many of them even knowthe name. The more correct statement is most likely, "Bear Stearns isthe economic vein of the controlling wealth of this country, and theneeds of the controlling wealth will always outweigh the needs of thecommon folk. The common folk for which this country is supposed to becomfort and sanctuary. |
So given the track record wouldn't be more logical and far moreconsistent that the war was for some form of material wealth, or someproduct that would lend to more material wealth? Who are the onesholding the stock options to these oil companies? Can I see a show ofhands out there in UMS land?? I bet it's very few of the common folk ofAmerica. But a large percentage of our government representatives havedupliticious interests that do not serve the people of this country.
Many of us don't want to be at war. But until those of us who want thatspeak up, until those of us who hold dear the differing values thanthose that our currently represented here then our values will not bereflected upon this country as a whole. There must be a reverence forour old people, and our young men and women, there must be importanceput upon enlightening one another to the right paths in life. Spiritualpursuits must not take a back seat to material pursuits, notpersonally, not in government or anywhere in this country. If ourgovernment was ran with more spirituality it would make it far moredifficult to shed one drop of anyone's blood. Then I believe with newvalues we would again see an emergence of the diplomats that use bothcognitive and emotional intelligence to make good sound decisions forthis country.
Just some food for thought.
Marty, who is Mruppert writes a response:
The media is not the media whom I knew in my time. The media of today feeds you lies and deceits! You can't even trust the NYT anymore.
Society is morally bankrupt...there is NO spirituality amongst people, except save the few who cling to places such as this website.
Elliot shamed himself but, also, shamed his wife. But, to think that his $5500/hr girl (yeah, that was the price per hour) is any less or more a victim, is to NOT know what is really at stake. She was not victimized at all, but was specially sent, and repeatedly, as poor Elliot liked a little bit of the kinky side of life , but what in the world could she do that made it worth that much???? Whatever it is, on the Internet it is free and he is twice the stupid man!!!
I agree with your rant, but I must say that I also agree with what war is truly about. In war, you kill PEOPLE! All people, just as we did in our righteous cause of WW2; if you can even call that righteous. We bombed the shit out of Germany and killed hundreds of thousands of people in Japan. And, did it twice in Japan, because, remember (or learn) that Hiroshima was only the first, the Nagasaki bomb was dropped three days later.
The good old Bear Stearns bailout should not be surprising to you. We bailed out four airlines way before that. And we bailed out several banks. The government bails out everybody of any importance, except you and me.
As for cognitive values and good decisions for this country, that ain't gonna happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At the time that people let the Federal government go , and let IT become an entity unto itself, we LOST IT! In the old days, it was not like that.
WE have made it separate from us, WE have made it a cult of movie stars, and WE have made it the way it is.
If any of you ever wish to change what your fate is, let me know......your greatest enemy is fear, but your greatest opponent is power.
A Profound Sense of Peace To You,
Marty, Poppyhead, Luckylee, and SissyGirl
Location: No I'm not impersonating a cat! I'm a laughing Owl
|Marty Wrote: WE have made it separate from us, WE have made it a cult of movie stars, |
I'm really glad you pointed this out. I wrote on another thread about the comedy skit entitled, "Baby "Whore" Gap", and it was a play on what the young stars are wearing and they dressed live babies up as prostitutes. This aired on "Mad TV". Now I've been known to be a fan of Mad TV, but I was appalled at this display. We have a cult of movie stars that promote putting people on "Wrong Paths" in life. I don't quite understand the fascination with it other than maybe there are those who believe, "if that sort of person could rise to fame then so could I?"
Who has set the standard for beauty in this country? Who said that there's only a size 1 and 2, no matter how tall you are? Who is promoting anorexia? We take the least mentally healthy, least physically healthy, and least emotion and spiritually bankrupt people and hold them out there for everyone to behold and our young people are spending money and becoming sickly to in order to immulate these individuals.
Money is the lifeblood of America, but it should be a calling towards and constant flow towards enlightenment and greater spirituality. There are those of us who will surround ourselves with people who value the same and we will create a small piece of heaven right here on earth. There are those of us who really do wish to end suffering and promote peace. Peace does not come without conflict, but it's not the conflict that is important it's how you handle the conflict. It's not the crisis that's important it's your response to the crisis that's important.
Marty really love reading your posts, please do share more
Peace to you.
|John W. Kelly|
Location: Lake Stevens, Wa.
|Humans are incapable of peace. Don't believe me? Pick up a history book.|
|howdy friends, |
Yes, in this current age of male leadership, peace never last for long. But my research into the age before had no war. No walled cities & no weapons of war. Women were the leaders then. With mankind using the wisdom of women, there was no war. But the current age that we are in brought the warriors who slaughtered mankind and brought in the conquer or be conquered mentality. They put our women down & degraded them so war would be the human way. But the ladies are coming back with that great wisdom & compassion that will wake up this world to the stupidity of war. We will get back to the important things of raising familys, making music, creating art, exploring the cosmos, and discoveries.
Location: No I'm not impersonating a cat! I'm a laughing Owl
|I like what you wrote here aceraven. Here's a bit of controversy to mull over. We have exalted the wrong people. People that have only great cognitive abilities and not emotional intelligence. We, as a society, have largely admired the cold and calculated. We honor those that show no emotional playing fields within themselves. We call these the diplomatic ones that are most capable of making the right decisions. I believe that cognitive abilities are needed but merelyl as a way to sort out our emotional intuition. In other words they work hand in hand. So I believe that we should exalt and honor those that have a better balance of both cognitive and emotional intelligence. Because a woman giving birth knowing the value and fragility of life would not be the first to choose war. At least I believe this would be the case for most women. I know I wouldn't send anyone's child to war. I would not want to see the bloodshed. We say it over and over again that men in our society are not as emotional as women. If that's the case then how can we say men on a whole would do a better job of leading this nation? HOw can we rely on "men", and I don't mean all men, but the ones we have put in positions of power that are not emotionally intelligent, to bring us to a place of peace and positive co-existence. Yes look at the societies that are ruled by men all over this world and largely are the children and women happy? I've read that in Utah over 80% of the women suffer from some sort of depression. And it's believed to be because of the polygamist relationships the men were allowed to have. Here in the states a great percentage of all our adults are suffering from some form of anxiety disorder and or depression. |
On a whole, I believe the results don't lie. We need a change and a big change. We are supposed to be the intelligent ones, the ones that are advanced above our animal counterparts. And yet, over and over again our animal kingdoms have managed to put together better organized societies. They have managed to control their mating behaviors. We don't see or study groups of animals having plagues of aids or other diseases. And yet, with all our so called advanced medicine we can't seem to stop the growing use and need for pharmacueticals just to get through our everyday routines.
My point is just that there's something wrong with the path our country is on. There's something wrong and it's showing with the growing number of homeless and sick.
How do we change a course that is like a stream of water rushing towards evaporation? I believe the only logical and emotionally intelligent solution is through spirituality. We need to bring it back to the forefront. We need to make it fashionable to be spiritual. It needs to be fashionable to be emotionally intelligent. Fashionable to care, to love and we should exalt those that know how to truly empathize with others.
Love this war and peace conversation, hope we all keep it going strong.
Location: West Texas
|I belive war is a bad thing, but is it nessesary? if we were to be passive would this cause more attatcks on america? don't get me wrong i am not for war or the war on irac. i do however belive in fighting for what you belive in, be it verbal or physical. is it wrong to fight for freedom? if we had'nt fought for our own freedom we may be told what religion to belive in? the war in irac is not being fought for freedom but for control of oil. oil is this ages gold, and as the new golden rule states; who ever has the most gold has the most rule. if it were for freedom why not fight for africa or even tibet. as long as there is an increasing demand for energy, there will be an increasing demand for oil. our president and vp are both oil milliners. of course they will fight over control. i like what aceraven wrote about if women ruled. it would be a much better place. but we live in a culture that is governed by wealth. even women are susceptible to it power. if clinton is elected i belive we will see more compassion from our goverment but not sure how the power struggle we are in will change. wars are fought because those in power refuse to give it up.|
|The problem is when people respond to posts that I was in a long time ago......I get notified...and hence I am drawn back to a community of people that I really love.|
However, I need to make this clear again......in recent history you are seeing a "sanitized" view of war...its noble and heroic aspects from one point of view (which is ours).
Regardless of the PBS documentary on WW2, the war that we actually fought was not all that pretty for us and not that noble in our deeds and action. I am not saying that there was not a great evil that had to be defeated...but what I am saying is that we (the Allied Powers) were not wearing the cloak of kindness. We obliterated many places in Germany, killing ALL the people, (men, women and children) and we evaporated two cities in Japan (men, women and children). All of a sudden, we put a guy named Calley on trial for massacre of a village in Vietnam...the same actions of the "heroes" of yesteryear now condemn the villian of Vietnam. We have put people on trial for doing far less in Iraq.
I cannot rationalize this change in our society. When did war become "fair fight" and when did it ever have rules of engagement? IT NEVER HAS!
Our silly government wants to make everything all nice-nice so that you will pay your taxes and fund a trillion dollar endeavor for a purpose that is, at best, misguided.
I wouldn't mind it so much if Bush said that he want's the oil...I need gas just like anyone else who owns a car does. The poster who said it is about oil was largely correct. But, there is more to it than just that.
Little Georgie had to prove to his Daddy a few things. Most prominently that he was a "man." And he would get that bad dude Saddam, who wore that bold hat and had that gunbelt and fired that rifle in the air. Sooooo......George, after invading Iraq, shows up in a bad combat suit on a boat, declaring "Mission Accomplished"...all he needed was a rifle to fire in the air...TA DAH!
To my other responder, I don't really think about whether a man or woman would make a better Prez.....sex of the candidates doesn't really enter my mind....however, my inclination is to vote for Hillary if that is an effective choice amongst the ones that I have. I base this on the opinion that she would be just as agressive in foreign policy as Georgie, but a lot more smarter. Afterall, she doesn't have to prove anything to her "Daddy".
But, I remain, hoping and praying for that which I know is possible,
Peace and Love,
Marty, and Luckylee, Poppyhead and SissyGirl (a bit sick at the moment)
Location: Seattle, Washington
|And there is also the theory that men who start wars generally have small....ahem...members....just a thought.|
Hannibal Barca was said to have been royally endowed with many things....when he met Scipio he knew he was defeated, before the battle even started.
Scipio was not an imposing person, he was dwarfed by Hannibal, but he was, indeed, a brilliant general. Scipio offered a truce and a way out, but Hannibal chose to fight.
The man who marched an army of soldiers and elephants across the Carpathians, no small feat, was quickly and easily defeated by the Romans led by Scipio.
Marty and Luck, Pop, and Siss
|The problem with America and with my country Australia which is just a franchise of America is very obvious. Does the 'freedom of speech" mean the freedom to tell lies? And if you have freedom of speech in your country why all the secret agencies? The aliens are lying to the military who are lying to the government. The government makes decisions of power based on lies. The process of telling lies is the process of alienation the creation of the alien nation. Look at the word alien - "A" "LIE" "N". If enough heroes like Bob Lazar and William Cooper speak up and tell their truth and not repeat what others are saying then the whole web of lies that our governments and military are based on will collapse. People who keep secrets and tell lies hang out together just like "birds of a feather flock together". This is the time of the spiritual revolution the planetary aspects of neptune in aquarius and uranus in pisces. The spiritual revolution is the BLUE revolution so if you want to be a part of it go out and buy a blue candle today. Say the mantra "I shall seek the truth,I shall reveal the truth". Blue is the astral colour of spirituality and it also the colour of the throat chakra and the throat is that part of the body where we speak and reveal our truths. Its is the bridge between the head and the heart. We would all like to spend more time living in our hearts so we can get out of our heads the doorway is the throat so reveal your truth so that you may live in your heart. Bob Lazar and William Cooper spoke up under fear of death and Cooper was eventually murdered by the secret government. But Cooper can shine like the stars in heaven now - I have no doubt that God has a special place for people like him. When I was born I had jaundice so they put me under a blue light, kind of symbollic since in my previous life I was too scared to publish my work to speak up. |
For other truth seekers and spiritual warriors out there I recommend films like zeitgeist, Loose Change, The Pentagon Papers. Youtube has some stuff on Bob Lazar and William Cooper. Like David Icke says "The truth shall set you free".
Edited by SouthernCrow 3/21/2008 3:05 AM
Location: Seattle, Washington
|Well Marty, it wasn't a perfect theory, but a theory nonetheless. I have the same theory about big guns and monster trucks so it was bound to break down into a generali- |
zation somewhere along the line! By the way, and on a serious note, thank you for the information on Hannibal.
Location: No I'm not impersonating a cat! I'm a laughing Owl
| Molly! I've heard the same thing about men with big expensive cars. That's really funny! Makes you wonder about the motivations behind it all. Wouldn't it be nice not to have anything to prove. Just a world where we were so appreciative of the life in it. A world where we could give reverence to one another. I know idealistic. And a quest that is not everyone's. What would have happened if it all started off with peace as the quest? |
It just seems as though there's enough here to feed and take care of everyone. And yet, there's always a fight and struggle for survival. The meanest, greediest ones seem to win over and over again. The peacemakers seem to get steamrolled. But I find great solace in imagining a world where everyone had what they needed. Where people really understood that our existence really only amounts to five minutes in the whole existence of the universe. It seems to me that if more people were truly awake and aware of how short and fragile life is then we would spend more time ending suffering, more time loving and caring, and more time just giving thanks and appreciating our short time here.
Location: Seattle, Washington
|I think you're idea of what the world could be is beautiful, Rose. I believe it's possible.|
|Heeelllloo to all: |
To my friend I thought to be American, but turns out to be from the land of Oz.....I hope you understand my analogies in an American context. I think Howard had to go and Rudd had to FINALLY have what he wanted. Will it make a difference? NOT in the significance of the USA losing George Boosh!
Marty and Katzen
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