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Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed
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Free WillSupernatural33 Votes - [0%]
Pre-DestinySupernatural31 Votes - [0%]
Neither oneSupernatural30 Votes - [0%]
A little of bothSupernatural32 Votes - [0%]
Little free will mostly destinedleo3 Votes - [0%]
Dynamic Mode or Static Mode of DestinyFoxFires1 Votes - [0%]
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/8/2012 12:24 PM (#22911)
Subject: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Free Will or pre-destiny?
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/8/2012 12:26 PM (#22912 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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I will give my opinions after reflecting what others have to share.... because I am a free will type, yet, I know I also have been a part of something I felt was pre-destined but not sure.....
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Disa
Posted 1/8/2012 12:56 PM (#22914 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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It's a trick question, I feel. And one that is discussed and debated often- but who really knows?

The best I can figure, we come here with the intentions of carrying out a specific purpose..our "destiny" so to speak. We decided before we got here that in our next life we would do such and such or we would like to experience such and such. But once we're here, it's all up for grabs, We can veer off the path in an infinite number of directions. We may come back eventually to our original path, we may not. That's the free will part.

We have the free will to do as we wish once we're here. However, I have this idea that if we don't complete what we set out to do, we have to come back again and repeat it. That's just my take on it. I guess I'll know for sure once I get back to the other side

Edited by Disa 1/8/2012 12:57 PM
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leo
Posted 1/8/2012 4:10 PM (#22918 - in reply to #22914)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Jill and Disa,

This has been an ongoing debate for a very long time. About a month ago I was at a meditation group meeting with Peter Russell (author of several books) and the question was asked about Free Will Vs Determination and Peter said "That depends if it has been determined that we should discuss it." Of course that got quite a laugh. The meditation group was split about 60-40 in favor of free will. A hotly debated issue.

I lean towards determinism but I believe Disa may be right. If for some reason we don't accomplish our purpose, we will indeed get to do it again.

Namaste
Leo

Edited by leo 1/8/2012 4:12 PM
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FoxFires
Posted 1/9/2012 8:13 AM (#22927 - in reply to #22918)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed


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Dear Leo,

I sort of feel everyone is right here for their own future, and none is wrong...

Job Ch 2 indicates we are steadily being accused (Challanged) and man will do anything to save his skin, so we get the flight or fight response in people Jesus indicated in Like John 15:13 that no greater love has a man than he lay down his life for a friend, and Jesus also seemed to never indicate disapproval to another...

So life seems to have us here to break through the anomalie, of fear... So we are either building change energy, or dealing with managing fear till addressed. Many seem to only face fear upon accepting death and crossing the river stix, or whatever we see as the cross over vector.

But the point seems to be as follows there is no right and wrong, just helpful or unhelpful. and unhelpful seems to just be that irritates or state of Zen or connection to happiness.  And remember the all to valuable point of we all have perdictable responses and future possibalaties...  Well this differentation can send karma running sideways and backwards with MAGIC... Yes this is where the Magic lies, in us have one thing, future posabalities...

Ponder the width, breadth, and depth of future posabalaties... Dwell there for a moment and think or feel, which ever is your mode of connection to the Chi force... But future posabalaties are also though of as something were are most likely to do, but when we bend and fold the stream of conchiness and do a left feild response, when dealing with issues, and respond in a way that we never would have before, we trip in a whole new rule set and different spiritual guides.  You basically have just what I called jumped string on your karmic guide, and you get to re write your past present and future.

If you read the bible where Jesus advised to love your enemy, or turn the other cheek when slapped, or to not hold hate for someone and to love your enemy more than a friend, or to forsake your family and follow him or let the dead bury the dead, tell a Catholic preist you do not feel like you have sinned, but instead feel the presence of God in your being, or you want to feel God in your heart and not see it just in the building  this is sort of a way to jump string with karma, and access a new awareness. I have been told by a few I have walked through the process this is similar to quantum jumping.  But there is an enlightenment that happens we we do the deeds without expectation of reward, and just do options that defy perdiction. But to do this our emotions need to be tame or folded and tucked into our feild, where we do not need to respond to them in fight and flight mode, as this is a crossing point that seems to be there

This also seems to invoke different and higher plane spiritual guides, as we have jumped our future possabality set and the light can start to bend around reality as we know it

So there is no wrong answer here, as we compose our Chi daily from a fetus mode of reality.

I hope this helps, Pure opinion and I am not looking to prove or disprove any facts, here, either this helps or it does not

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leo
Posted 1/9/2012 11:17 AM (#22930 - in reply to #22914)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Disa,

After re-reading my post of yesterday, I left out an important point. While I believe that we are mostly destined, with very little free will. I said that if for some reason we don't get it right and in that I mean karma, we'll be back. After my research into reincarnation I've found that for the most part we'll be back anyway. Either to fix bad karma or to move into another phase of learning. As Tom Campbell (My Big TOE) says, "We are in a physical reality (digital) learning lab." We are here to learn and increase our consciousness. Since non-local or phenomenal consciousness permeate's the universe, as being proven in quantum physics, we are all together in it through entanglement. (Dr. Dean Radin's book "Entangled Minds" and "The Conscious Universe")

This is a very small sample of the current studies in consciousness. There are now many more scientist in this current paradigm shift than ever before.

Blessings
Leo
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/9/2012 11:35 AM (#22932 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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I can relate to everyone's posts, which is why i love it here.

I agree with Disa very much and understand the karma thing, but i do not believe in forced karma... I believe our free will alows for us to CHOOSE to experience being the good or bad.

I also feel similar to pre-destined, like an agreement, but then it's up to us to stay on that road, or perhaps change our mind... yet I always feel nudged to what I originally planned for myself. But perhaps I didn't plan a whole lot, but to just love....

When I am not in love or feeling loved, my center core is off and I tremor horribly bad. That is my soul stating to me over and over, that in order to be calm.... i must avoid drama and stress, yet it's stress and drama thrown at me at a constant rate. It is up to ME, and me only to change and get the undesired out of my life.

So, free will win's on a sliding scale, barely in my theoretic mind... but i still believe in FATE!

One once said: Even if you don't believe in fate, fate believes in you.

So, I am my own worst enemy. I will to CHANGE it... let go... let fate take over....

Yes, trick question indeed. LOL So many possibilities, no REAL answer.

Love and hugs and thank you for a GREAT discussion.
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Aquarius
Posted 1/9/2012 12:31 PM (#22937 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: RE: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Supernatural3 - 1/8/2012 5:24 PM Free Will or pre-destiny?

Freedom Of Choice

As the issue of the splitting one part of the human race from the other is such a vital and also profoundly disturbing one to the human psyche, I hope I shall be forgiven for repeating from the chapter ‘Free Will’ the following: Every soul eventually reaches the point when it dawns on us that we do have free will and that freedom of choice is one of humankind’s most precious gifts on the Earth plane. Yet, that this by no means represents unrestricted freedom, as many would like to think we have, because we – the same as everything else in the whole of Creation – are subject to the Universal laws.

We, our destiny and our freedom are not unlike a dog, who is taken for a walk on a very long lead. On one end of this lead are we, the dog, and the lead itself is our Karma, which we ourselves are creating, one lifetime after another. Our destiny is at the other end of the lead and rests safely in the hands of God and the Angels. The world of spirit is our true home and no soul is ever forced into another lifetime. But for every soul in that world there eventually comes the moment when we have rested sufficiently and urge awakens in us to grow and evolve some more through continuing our earthly education. Until this has been completed and our energies have changed sufficiently to be compatible with those of our Source, no soul can return into the oneness with God. 

The Roman philosopher Cicero, 106-43 BC, struck this warning note: ‘To be free, people must be enbonded to the law.’ Cicero seems to have had the earthly laws in mind, but his words of wisdom are even more true for the Universal laws. Only those can be free who willingly submit themselves to the these laws. In a way they create a cage, but at the same time they provide a structure and framework in which all life, including ours, will always be securely anchored. Most important of all, they ensure that no soul can ever get truly lost or stranded in the vastness of space and Eternity.

Having become familiar with the Universal laws, when we strictly obey them by conducting our lives in harmony with the Universe’s demands, we cannot possibly go wrong. Following our inner guidance, we rest safely within the protection of their Highest Self, the living God within and Its helpers, the Angels and Masters in the world of light, all our fears will eventually be shed. Wherever our pathway through life may take us, onto ever higher and holier levels of experience, we shall freely walk in the safety of our inner awareness that our Highest Self knows the way of all things and has the answers to all our questions.

Unbeknown to us for a very long time, this is how all along the Universe has been willing to lay the keys to genuine freedom into the hands of all souls who can prove through their behaviour that they are ready for it. And that takes no more than leading a good life and as soon as we are showing that at all times we do not hesitate to give of our best, the laws ensure that only more of the same can in due course find its way back to us. Because of this, until the last one of our karmic debts has been paid, when someone does us a nasty turn, instead of taking vengeance and creating more difficult Karma for themselves, wise ones prefer to forgive and walk away. Making such choices is the only true freedom we shall ever have.

From ‘Astrology on the Healing Journey’

With love and light,
Aquarius
 

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Disa
Posted 1/9/2012 2:17 PM (#22938 - in reply to #22930)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Oh, yep, Leo. I totally get what you're saying and I think the same thing. We come back anyway to learn our lessons, etc. It's just that when we deviate from our original plan, I think we may have to come back to finish up the lesson we didn't learn

As far as Karma goes, I don't think it's necessarily good or bad, it just "IS". For every action their is an equal and opposite reaction...is that how the saying goes? What we may deem as something bad happening to us, may be for our greater good and we just don't see it that way, that sort of thing.

Like Jill said, I think we're mostly on the same page. Cool

Edited by Disa 1/9/2012 2:20 PM
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/9/2012 7:15 PM (#22941 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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I have to lovingly disagree... I do not believe in forced Karma. I believe we choose to come back to feel what it's like, so we can have empathy towards the experience of being the villain. I do not ever think that our God, would ever force us to experience negativity, unless we choose to do so. We are the deciding factor (in my opinion) of what we WANT to experience, not for the lesson, but to know what it's like on both ends. Learned from "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsh.

Listening to the audio book of his channeled writings not only reached me personally, but made me realize that I too, had been channeling my entire life. Just didn't know what it was.

That is my take on it... some may "think" it's forced Karma, but I feel it's chosen Karma, just so one knows what it's like to be on the other side. A learning, but not forced fate.

Anyway, that is my take... doesn't make it written in stone. Just my own personal belief... I cannot believe in a judgmental God, or a control freak type of God. Just doesn't make sense to me wholly, but the concept does make sense to a degree.

Love and hugs
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Disa
Posted 1/9/2012 7:38 PM (#22942 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Hmm. I never actually thought of it as forced, just something that happens due to laws of nature and/or the universe. Still... I have no idea
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/9/2012 7:58 PM (#22943 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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I know what you mean... i just cannot believe that anything like KARMA is something we have to experience, but we choose to experience. Giving us more free will than we thought.
Make sense? or am I off my rocker... ha ha ha, wouldn't be the first time. ROFL
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cause
Posted 1/9/2012 10:19 PM (#22944 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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<p>absolute free  </p><p>will I feel that predestination would be obvious to a thinking being. We would know if we were under any control. kismet, and Revelation are likely a realities. In this we have the option to experience something more spiritual, mystical or divine. I feel it is still our option. </p><p> Cause</p>

Edited by cause 1/9/2012 10:20 PM
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Paul Joseph
Posted 1/10/2012 6:17 AM (#22946 - in reply to #22944)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Sorry, I didn't take the on-line test yet ...

.... as for reflections, yes I kind of lean towards Disa's comments .... some nice words there from FF ...

was mulling this over yesterday, and as in many other instances, Shakespeare had something I think, when he put into Hamlet's mouth:

"There is a destiny that shapes our ends Horatio, rough hew them how we may"

Some examples from my own experience of where perhaps Destiny has invited me to the party where I have or have not heard Her tune ...

... from around the age of 35 (23 years ago) I got it into my head to look for the Holy Grail, became absorbed with the legend - as an object, rather than accepting, as Jung's Alchemy sees it, the transmuted soul - so I dragged my family around half of England to no avail. Then over time I heard about more recently the Valencia Grail held in Valencia Cathedral in Spain, which has been there for hundreds of years. Now then here is the ignorance of Destiny's call - way back in around 1974 (when I was 20) I got to know a Spanish friend and stayed with his family for a few weeks - at a time when I was unconscious of the Grail (although very familiar with the Arthurian legend). And you can guess where his family lived .... Valencia! Had I chosen to return to this life to complete a Grail destiny, of which I was unaware in 1974, yet the unconscious spirit knew more about than did I, except I was oblivious?! I regret that lack of awareness then as I would have loved to have venerated the object in person, whatever its' provenance ...

..... but now, since hoepfully becoming slightly more intiutively aware in my life, I encounter many instances where 'life' presents me/us with so many meaningful coincidences with such precision, yet based on so many chance variables, that I have come to believe in coincidence as one of the 'proofs of God'. If that is the case, for me, the coincidence is an occurence of where the Great Spirit draws aside the veil for a brief moment between Eternity and Time and allows something magical to happen. What we choose to do with it is down to us.

On that basis, I suppose what I am saying ultimately is that there is a destiny that shapes our ends, and that it is our choice how to make the best of it ...
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FoxFires
Posted 1/10/2012 8:17 AM (#22947 - in reply to #22946)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed


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Dear Paul,

I feel like the grail issue we all might look for is sort of like the finding a pot of gold at the rainbow...

As the rainbow is like the grail, when we track the source and get there where the rainbow starts and hope to catch the lepercauian, and request they forfit or turn over the pot of gold, they will reply on the day we catch them, that the real pot of gold is inside us and we just have to look within. As we chase the rainbow we find the gold missing every time but the promise is always there, and some day we figure out where the rainbow starts and ends, but when we get close, we only find ourself, and this is where true treasure resides

Namaste, my Friend

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Paul Joseph
Posted 1/10/2012 11:56 AM (#22949 - in reply to #22947)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Absolutely FF, I agree; the point of my story was more that something I later looked for, I had access to already, but at a point in time and personal development when I had not been aware of it: and that in relation to the thread, it was in retrospect as if Destiny had been offering me an answer to a question that I didn;t know I was asking
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Aquarius
Posted 1/13/2012 5:36 AM (#22978 - in reply to #22943)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Astrologically, Saturn is a symbolism for the stern and undeviating celestial schoolmaster who requires that every soul must eventually achieve control over its lower nature and complete mastery of all aspects of its being. This sounds daunting but we are not alone in this, God and the Angels are waiting to be called upon to help each one of us fulfil these requirements. Saturn is the great accountant of life whose ledgers are perfect and justice is wielded accordingly, under the supervision of the Lords of Karma. For this purpose the Universe keeps on the etheric level of life what is known as the Akashic Records.

This is the place where, throughout the ages, each soul’s every thought, word and deed on its evolutionary pathway is noted at any given moment. Because we are responsible for each one of them, they are recorded and leave a mark behind in the great book of life, similar to having been written in indelible ink. These files can be likened to a vast library and a bookkeeping system that, like any other, consists of a credit and a debit ledger. Yet, unlike on the Earth plane, none of the entries in the Universe’s system can ever be wiped out. It is just that the ones on the debit side can and must eventually be redeemed and balanced by our good deeds on the credit side. This continues until perfect balance has been achieved and no more difficult Karma is created by us. And that indeed is the only way every soul, through its own efforts, can and must eventually release itself from the wheel of rebirth into Earth life and its Karma.

The Akashic Records are shown to us on ‘judgement day’, i.e. when we are back in the world of spirit and stand before ourselves. Stripped of everything that mattered to us on the Earth plane and guided by the wise ones in charge of us, we ourselves then assess our performance of all lifetimes up to the most recent one. Together with the wise ones we then discuss and finally decide the experiences we shall require to ensure our future soul growth and to satisfy the requirements of the law of Karma. Can you now see why it is of the utmost importance that we learn self-mastery and especially the control of our thought processes?

  1. From ‘Thought – The Most Powerful Force Of All’
Recommended Reading:
•    ‘The Akashic Records’




Edited by Aquarius 1/13/2012 5:37 AM
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FoxFires
Posted 1/13/2012 6:29 AM (#22979 - in reply to #22978)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed


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Dear Aquarius,

Judgement day might just be what an individual feels they need.   As when we die and crossover it is said that we have to face our worst fears

What if the weight of our heart is lighter than a feather, and a person was asked to come here to help people see the snares of life and the things that trap people into lower energy realms. 

Love and Light

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Supernatural3
Posted 1/14/2012 9:58 PM (#22987 - in reply to #22911)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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I simply don't believe in forces KARMA, however i have to agree that we will eventually choose what it's like to be the victim. But... what if we already experienced both?
Then perhaps the life we choose is for simply..... experiencing all that is given to us. Take it the best that we can.... and make it what we choose.

I want to choose it to be positive.

Maybe that is in my stars.... maybe I was meant to experience the difficulties, once again. It's just life....

I still choose HAPPY, fun times. It's my destiny..... because I choose it. Free Will....

I love you all~
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Aquarius
Posted 1/15/2012 6:18 AM (#22988 - in reply to #22979)
Subject: Re: Interesting Pole and opinions welcomed



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Dear Foxfire - the way I understand it is that, when we cross over, we not only have to face our worst fears but our whole being and everything we ever got up to in any one of our lifetimes - not just two or three, but maybe thousands. And bearing in mind that every soul has to wade its way through the whole gamut of human experiences, one shudders to think what may turn up.

As far as the second point is concerned, that must be quite within the realms of possibility. I would love to meet such a being, wouldn’t you? Or are you – by any chance – one of them?

With love and light,
Aquarius


Edited by Aquarius 1/15/2012 6:19 AM
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