Did God create evil?
Supernatural3
Posted 3/26/2008 1:41 PM (#4052)
Subject: Did God create evil?



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Here is A brief story that touched me:

Did God create everything that exists? Does evil exist? Did God create evil?

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his
students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!" "God created everything?"

The professor asked. "Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the
principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition.

The professor, quite pleased with himself, had boasted to the students that he had proven
once more that the faith in a God was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" Said the Professor.

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is
what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460 F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if
we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does." The student replied, "Once again you are
wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light.
Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white
light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot
measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and
illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount
of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what
happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's Inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil. To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the
darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

The young man's name - Albert Einstein

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aceraven
Posted 3/26/2008 2:26 PM (#4053 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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WOW...you are just totally awesome with the great ones insight...So this is why he said "Imagination is more important than knowledge" that Albert was something...Supernatural3, This is a post with the most, thankyou. I'm glad you had kids who gave you a reason to remain with us. Is Tim into sharing any of his insights with this forum.......remember, use the power of the search engine & research with a open mind and you will be amazed...Keep on truckin & lovin, your buddie, aceraven
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searching
Posted 3/28/2008 2:03 PM (#4088 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Thank you for posting this supernatural3, it was fun to read. it also makes a lot of since. its something i have been strugeling with for a while and i now see a new out look.
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Supernatural3
Posted 3/28/2008 2:11 PM (#4089 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I am glad that others enjoyed this as much as I did....
It made me think too....
Blessings~
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Rose
Posted 3/29/2008 11:00 AM (#4112 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I've heard this before and I love it everytime I hear or read it. I'm so glad you posted this.

Peace to you..........
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Kashia
Posted 4/25/2008 11:16 AM (#4670 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Doc, I am glad I went beyond first couple of post pages. This is enlightening.
I believe Einstein was an awakened being, of course he was.
Thank you!
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schenn
Posted 4/25/2008 12:25 PM (#4672 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Very wonderful post!
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/25/2008 5:16 PM (#4678 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Interesting indeed; but dualist, surely ?

Sorry to be a party pooper ...

There are a number of traditions conflated here. To take just one example, from the Christian Old Testament (sorry too tobe repetitive as I mentioned Job the other day):

The OT story of Job clearly has poor old, dear Job, a the mercy of a gamble between the OT G-d and Satan; ie, both G-d and Satan were on something of equal terms.

Job wins. Elsewhere, Jacob wrestles with a 'dark stranger' - an angel ? G-d ? Jacob wins.

How can any man, or woman, triumph over g-d ? Indeed, ok, they are ancient stories/myths if you will; but as Metaphysicians I hope we might assume common ground that 'myths' might have a common purpose, that being, expressing a fundamental truth, of sorts.

The truth i infer from those stories, and manifold others is that this earth is this earth and the powers on it are the powers on it. No more, no less.

So, from one perspective, that of the dualistic mind, indeed Einstein was way ahead of Western civilized mind: but he also expressed a Kabbalistic idea, that when G-d created, s/he withdrew from that/this creation and in that space, we, and evil, were formed. That is then the problem with dualism, ie, how to be in contact with that 'removed' Being. And, as well, how do we know that we we inhabit, has any relation with it, except through a mirrored set of inferences ?

Now, on the other side of the table from dualism (a paradox, but please bear with me!), we have what has been known variously as, syncretism (think i have that right, may need checking), inclusivity, paradox, integrationalist, true spirituality, the Perennial Philosophy, Metaphysics. Here, where I sit, G-d, Blessed Be, is the Lord and Lady of Good and Evil: ie, all and everything is necessary for the world to turn, and in that turning, discover the magic of illusion and the miracle of transcendence.

It is a REAL PROBLEM (ie, I am not discounting the reality of evil, or even, the absence of good). But, without this, we cannot have that, without darkness, no light, etc, etc. It is very difficult, but from the perspective of what we might be talking about, the Eternal Self relinquishes its/her/his power, totally,to incarnate within each of us, yet in doing that, releases and exposes all the cosmic energies, good and bad.

So I am not wholly convinced by the story on a developed, metaphysical level, but from where Einstein was coming from, and presumably in an Anti-semitic culture, who can fault him ?

(hope that made some mind of sense)
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Rose
Posted 4/25/2008 5:27 PM (#4680 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I don't know Paul, I think you may be over analyzing this. It seems pretty straight forward to me. God did not create evil, evil is the absence of God. I really don't think there's much more to it than that. Sometimes we just question and create debate where there really isn't any.

And some things we are far better off accepting. There is a degree of peace when you accept certain truths. I find peace in the truth that Evil is an absence of God, makes total sense, feels good all over and through and trough.

Trees are trees and we could develop arguments and debates as to why they might not be trees. Yet, when all the debate is over and the arguments are made it wouldn't matter if you created a sound argument and people accepted it. Bottomline is "it's still a tree".

Rhetoric, I believe is sometimes our way of taking up perfectly empty, peaceful space.

Love and Peace to you Paul....
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/25/2008 5:35 PM (#4682 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Thanks Rose. Wasn't trying to be rhetorical. I accept your view. And i really am not into intellectualised or aggressive argument. But I feel in my daily working life i have had to address '?evil?'

Bottom line stuff then, for me, is if evil is the absence of G-d, the g-d is not omnipotent, omniscient, nor everywhere. Since I believe G-d is, omnipotent, omniscient and everywhere, there can never be an absence of G-d.

Therefore, G-d is in good, and G-d is in evil, but our purpose is to unite, transcend, integrate, love, and by loving, evoke love, in those that some might otherwise discern as 'evil'.

Love & blessings
Paul
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/25/2008 5:41 PM (#4683 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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ps Rose

Sorry, the punchline to my feeling is that, the G-d of G-ds, Blessed be S/he is actually

Beyond Good and Evil.

It is we that have to work out what it all means, with the tools (our sense reality, the world) at our disposal.

But then that too is all part of the 'Hieros Gamos', the Great Game, the Great Dance, the Dance of Life, Death and Suffering

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NothingEverything
Posted 4/25/2008 7:49 PM (#4684 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I heard somewhere that a truly enlightened mind, connected to the source, considers niether good nor bad.
Duality itself being a sundering created by our minds of a truly whole and complete existance outside of any perceptions.
The filter of our minds creates these labels of the myriad of "things" in existance to help us analyze and "understand" them.
Our minds are like meticulous secretaries running around and catagorizing everything it touches.
Let it take a permenant vacation, for grass and trees where there long before their labels "made" them grass and trees.
Everything is in its place.
Dont look, but see.
Dont think, intuit.
There is no anything, save perfection.
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Rose
Posted 4/25/2008 9:10 PM (#4685 - in reply to #4683)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Okay I hear you Paul. Always the ebb and flow of knowledge between all of us. That's how I experience intellectual exchange.

What I believe is that God will indeed turn away from that which has no faith, no hope, no desire to be enlightened. And there is the case for the absence of God. When God is not manifested in a heart, or mind or deed, or desire then there is no God and there is Evil. That's what I believe.

Thanks for sharing and I too respect your position.

Love and Peace to you.
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Rose
Posted 4/25/2008 9:18 PM (#4686 - in reply to #4684)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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nothingeverything, I understand your point. And yes, I too believe that there is a duality. The Celts wrote and spoke of it many centuries ago and we see and hear of such things throughout history. Today many people deal with their dualities. I also believe there is a right path and a wrong path. I believe that when people get on the wrong path it's the responsibility of those around him or her to point them in the direction of the right path.

While this duality is part of our human condition, I believe that the enlightened and those who are on the path to enlightenment work to bring unity to both selves. My goal is to speak, act and do as one whole unit. To respond as one total unison. That is the ultimate goal. Actions, words, beliefs, deeds all speaking on one accord. Little to no duplicity. My spirit and body together as one. That for me is the goal. So while I am aware and accepting of the duplicity of myself and others, I know that there are paths that lead to suffering. There are paths that are best left untraveled. But if traveled then they should be experienced and the lesson learned and everything done to stay off of any path that leads to suffering for ones self or the suffering of others.

Thanks for writing and sharing...this is a really good thread.

Love and Peace to you.
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NothingEverything
Posted 4/26/2008 12:16 AM (#4689 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Concerning paths, my belief is that the concept of a true path/self creates the fact that there is somehow a false path/self, and choose not to recognize anything as being true or false and to desolve duality alltogether. A path to suffering and one to bliss are the same path to me. The face of an angel, the face of a demon, there is no difference.
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sunflower
Posted 4/26/2008 7:06 AM (#4698 - in reply to #4689)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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evil,angel,good,bad,light,dark,,whatever people call evil,and ther is evil on this earthplane,just as there are angels,where there is light,there is dark,where there is positive,there is negative,God created man,its up to man/woman to follow the right path,which comes from the lessons we learn while we are here,our purpose,we gain enlightenment from many sources,even those who do not beleive in a God,a higher source,experience throughout this liftime,light,and dark are all around us,it is the dark that is called evil,a word by man,as in school,heaven and hell,these are in the now,hell on earh.its hard for me to write what is in my mind,and put it into words,it just is,some who strive with obssession,to become enlightened,study words on a paper,written by a humans hand,the only enlightenment there is,is to look inside oneself,not judge others,who they think may not be as enlightened as themselves,we are all as one,we take the path that was desined for us before we arrived here,our purpose,but some who claim to have more knowledge than others,are veering towards the ego,knowledge is a good thing,in hindsight,we all look back and wish we had done thing differently,but that is the point,we were meant to go through that period of time,and learn.Murders,phaedophiles,drug related crime,so on,this is the dark forces at work,they are here,they do exist,we have the freedom of will,choice,we don,t know what lies ahead of us,as we only have this moment.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/26/2008 11:38 AM (#4705 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Glad we came to an understanding Rose.

NothingEverything, interesting connections ... Satan was the highest Angel, also known as Lucifer, bringer of light; and back to the thread's beginning, Einstein is known as the 'father of modern physics' [who was the mother? Gaia ?!] ... but then modern physics begat the atomic bomb, which seems to illustrate your point.

Sunflower, yes, too ... the contemporary author I often cite, don Miguel Ruiz, a Toltec shaman, refers to the world we inhabit as being created by a communal dream, the dream of the planet. The dream of the planet, our dream, how we relate one with another, can be a dream of Heaven, or a dream of Hell ... it is our choice.

Maya, samsara, error, the veil of illusion, sin, call it what we will .....

I think it becomes very paradoxical (and I am not meaning to play word games). Somehow, as i see it, evil/the negative/the shadow, exists. But the light too exists on which in this analogy, the shadow depends for its existence) - indeed, without light there would be no shadow. Perhaps the reconcilling factor is forgiveness, grace, and, that old chestnut - love (whatever that might mean...)
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Supernatural3
Posted 4/26/2008 12:42 PM (#4714 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I think all points are valid. I do believe that both positive and negative are a part of who we are. One cannot exist with out the other. But, we can choose the one that is more pleasant. If one chooses to let in some light, they would have less dark.

Ahhh, but we cannot measure darkness,...... it's infinite and unmeasurable at least by our science of physics (which isn't good enough for the spiritual realm, YET). But, as Einstein stated, we can only measure the light with in.... which tells me it's harder to stay on the light side. While we try.... it is both that is needed. Until we all accept that both are NEEDED, we will forever torture ourselves for having a dark side.

It is possible to accept things, such as letting ourselves be loved, being just that.... simple. I know a lot of people who do not accept who they are, so they fight with them self and live in a miserable world. Instead, just like who you are.... let love in, and if you don't like who you are, change your actions so you can. It's just like changing your mind. All flexable.

Anyway, I can see both sides of this statement and agree to both sides. But, THOUGHT is real.... physical is illusion.
Think Happy~
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mruppert
Posted 4/27/2008 12:35 AM (#4723 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Hi all:
     I still say little Albert, as precocious as he was in the classroom, in later years had great insight, but was dead wrong in certain things.
     At AbZero there is "no" time?
     Before the Big Bang what time was it?
     When electron splits fly in different directions into infinity, and communicate the declination of each part so that the declination is maintained throughout infinity, how much "time" does it take?

Peace,
Marty and Neils Bohr studenten katzen Luck, Popp, and Sissssss
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NothingEverything
Posted 4/27/2008 1:37 AM (#4724 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Time is non-sense!
Non-time makes sense.
Drop the rulers, remover the labels.
And things can then, truly be.
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mruppert
Posted 4/27/2008 2:11 AM (#4727 - in reply to #4724)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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And NTET puts, in poetic terms what I believe...
All TIME exists,
All of TIME exists at all times,
All of TIME exists everywhere!

Read NTET's words carefully, he is saying exactly what I mean.

PEACE,
Marty and PerPETual Cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, and the Sissygirl
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/27/2008 11:29 AM (#4737 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Agreed.

And what is more ...

Eternity is Now.
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Chotuni
Posted 4/27/2008 5:46 PM (#4752 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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i don't think god created evil but maybe freedom of choice
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sunflower
Posted 4/27/2008 6:11 PM (#4762 - in reply to #4752)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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choti,i think fredom of choce,created evil
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Chotuni
Posted 4/27/2008 6:18 PM (#4765 - in reply to #4762)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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precisely??????? ????????
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/28/2008 4:02 AM (#4777 - in reply to #4765)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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.... but please remember, non-duality ....

an old, now long-deceased, friend of mine, an Anglican Fransiscan monk (Bro Ian Scott, SSF), who i was going to mention before, popped into my brain again here ... he used to say, 'God is good and evil, but always chooses good' ....

... but in the karmic world, and thinking of Christine's satsangs, the cosmic self wants - needs? - to experience everything of Her/His creation.

So we are perahps back to paradox.
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ongoingbattle
Posted 4/28/2008 1:04 PM (#4811 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Paul and NTET, you are both saying the same thing and it is an amazing realization to have. Time is referential. Cho and Sun are also onto something big when they said free will created evil. I believe this statement with all my heart: "Evil does not exist independant of man." I read this series by TERRY GOODKIND, the Sword of Truth Series. This is the most amazing series i have ever read, it's practically my bible. I just finished the 12th and final book yesterday. It left me breathless, in tears, and with a smile on my face!! If you want to see a character develop in an amzing way to have the outlook on life i think so many of us are striving for then please read this series. It is quite the undertaking, (with the 3rd book being a little slow, but hands down, the 6th and 12th book alone make it worthwhile, not to down play all the others). The Main character, Richard, realizes that evil doesn't really exist. He sees first hand how both sides in a battle usually feel they are right and that the other is evil. He ends saying that evil does not exist independant of man, and therefore our free will is what allows us to choose how we live, for good, prosperity, and growth, or for evil, corrution and stagnation. He condemns those who would live for corruption, not to death, but instead condemns them to life; to live out their lives in the corruption they spawn
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Tracy Martin
Posted 4/28/2008 4:28 PM (#4826 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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It seems to me that 'man' created evil, not 'God.'
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/28/2008 4:41 PM (#4828 - in reply to #4811)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Its nice to be so much moved by a work of literature, Ongoingbattle. I was much moved by Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series in the 1970s and wrote some - unpublishable - books of my own, one of which, back in 1977 or so, was about a magic sword; I hawked it around without success. Its very interesting how ideas seem to have a time, and some express it more synchronistically/successfully than others. That's why I took a decision to devote to the Dark Lady of verse rather than prose ...

Now Tracy; man created evil ... hmmm ... that acceeds to man (do you mean woman too?) quite a power ... I say that 'cos, where I am coming from in these reflections, is that good and evil are the yin and yang, male and female, yes and no, of the Cosmic Order.

So I would personally rather say that, we - men and women - can choose the good or choose the evil; either becomes a 'path not taken' (oh dear, sorry, another poem - Robert Frost ...) and, in the Metaphysical terminology, all another aspect of the 'required course', until the, 'appointed time': a time that is outside of time.
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Omjah
Posted 4/28/2008 4:59 PM (#4832 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?


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What is evil? 'Man's inhumanity to man.' Is the earth evil for erupting, quaking, flooding? No, only our reaction defines it as evil.
What is evil? Only what man or god says is evil, and that is most usually confined to the actions of humanity.
People sometimes say, how could God allow this or that, but once again it is the actions of humankind that has created the suffering.
If we are thinking of evil as some kind of dark force malevolently moving about the planet, it is we who are thinking it so!
Evil does not exist without mankind's creating it.

Om!
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Tracy Martin
Posted 4/28/2008 5:14 PM (#4839 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Yes, I meant all of humanity, not just men.

In the material world, we experience duality. Light and Shadow, good and evil. In awareness we experience Beingness, isness, without labels or judgments, or any passing emotion. I am wondering if the tao, the yin and yang is also a manifestation, a creation, and not the ultimate reality which might best be described as no-thing?

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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/28/2008 5:19 PM (#4841 - in reply to #4839)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I think so absolutely Tracy - i posted somewhere earlier today from a possbile incorrect rendition of the Tao Te Ching

"The Way that can be named is not the constant Way"

The Buddha's flower sermon .... Jesus's silence, when asked by Pilate, 'What is truth ?'

Silence is ultimately the only pure response to 'the question'
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Supernatural3
Posted 4/29/2008 9:13 PM (#4873 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I don't know.... again... deep thoughts.

God created energy, and energy has both negative and positive equally bound. The binder is neutral.
With these three key things, we have balance, we lose one and we lose balance and die.

Man just exploits evil.... blaims everything on it, and even used evil as an excuse.

Evil is just a word, that describes negative, which is needed, or we couldn't experience positive.

It's keeping the balance that is a pain in the rear, or we all become free radicals.
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mruppert
Posted 4/29/2008 9:49 PM (#4874 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Hi all.....
     DocJ....those that do others a specific harm do so for some sort of gain. Those that do many others harm do so for an ill perceived higher purpose. Although this is abhorrent to me, and I am sure all of us, I must point out that there are those that do harm on any scale for the sheer evil(pleasure) of doing it.
     Sharon Tate was a crappy actress, and the LoBiancos not particularly noted for anything of significance. Yet, Charlies Girls slaughtered them in a most bizarre manner....this is EVIL. There is no rationale, it is, just plain murder for the sake of bloodlust.
     What do you say about that?

Peace,
Marty and Fraidycats
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/30/2008 4:16 AM (#4886 - in reply to #4874)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Resonations, Marty. Hitler, Stalin and Mao always haunt my brain too.

There's also a problem too with readily comparing good/evil with, eg, yin/yang (as I indeed did) which is that it could place them on an equal footing.

The God who is good and evil but who always chooses good, elevates some behaviours and preferences over others. So while, pace Christine's, 'all of karma is a required course', that resonates too, but the lesson of karma is to attain at-one-ment with the Higher Self (who always chooses good ...).

Owzat ?
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Nefertiti
Posted 4/30/2008 9:58 AM (#4894 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Mental Illness plays a huge part of this too. Which in most cases, caused by MAN. However some are born with problems, perhaps with a destiny to be the villain or hero.

I too, see both sides.

Love and Light
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Paul Joseph
Posted 4/30/2008 4:35 PM (#4900 - in reply to #4894)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I have drafted further responses then discarded them. But I cannot restrain myself a further comment here - previously too I had refrained from making any linkages to mental illness, so as, at least, not to make mental illnesss seem any more 'evil' than any other illness, physical or otherwise, eg, cancer, etc; i am sure, none of your intention, Nefertiti, so this is perhaps me just clarifying my own position.

Mental illness in this context is, as i suggest above, another 'force of nature'; our human condition, perhaps a learning, perhaps a karmic event.

Evil, in the terms i had been understanding and responding is a more 'cosmic', metaphysical, or universal force, that all of us are required to contend with - through our capacity to choose, in the metaphor that I have most recently been using.

To take one exmaple from the historic individuals I mentioned, Hitler was never diagnosed or treated for mental illness; he did refer to having a 'voice', that he interpreted as a conduit for the Germanic, Aryan peoples - all a fiction, really, but so powerful as to bring a nation under his sway. For me, that is a million miles away from the individual distress and suffering experienced in mental illness, though equally, those sensitive enough to endure 'mental illness' are often experiencing an incredible spiritual profundity (eg, the English poet John Clare, but there are many others)
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NothingEverything
Posted 5/1/2008 7:37 AM (#4912 - in reply to #4727)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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mruppert - 2008-04-28 3:11 PM

And NTET puts, in poetic terms what I believe...
All TIME exists,
All of TIME exists at all times,
All of TIME exists everywhere!

Read NTET's words carefully, he is saying exactly what I mean.

PEACE,
Marty and PerPETual Cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, and the Sissygirl


Thank you Marty!
Your great at "seeing"!
Rather than looking.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/1/2008 8:07 AM (#4913 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



PhD Alumni

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Doesn't it say somewhere in the Upanishads [ substituting the neuter 'one' for 'man'; also from memory so could be slightly off key] ?

"May the evil one become good,
the good one become free,
may those who are free
make others free
may those who are free
find God "





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NothingEverything
Posted 5/2/2008 4:16 AM (#4942 - in reply to #4841)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Location: Hirosaki, Japan
Paul Joseph - 2008-04-29 6:19 AM

I think so absolutely Tracy - i posted somewhere earlier today from a possbile incorrect rendition of the Tao Te Ching

"The Way that can be named is not the constant Way"

The Buddha's flower sermon .... Jesus's silence, when asked by Pilate, 'What is truth ?'

Silence is ultimately the only pure response to 'the question'


yes.
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Supernatural3
Posted 5/3/2008 6:48 PM (#4968 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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I think while human, we experience everything in a physical sense. As we cannot have one with out the other. But in spirit form, we sure can, because thought is real.... if we think it, we create it. If one believes in hell, they may just create that. One of my best friends said that confessions are only for the person to be able to forgive them self. I believe that.

As far as mental illness, some are for sure born with physical ailments. Chemical processes that are not processing right, or an extra chromazone, which causes down syndrome, and even with that and patience, a person with a brain defect can still lead a normal life. But then, there are those who have the identified and associated behaviors of bad teachers [abusive parent(s)]. Since Hitler was mentioned, it depends on what view your viewing from on whether he was experiencing mental illness through, because he was only carrying out what he was programmed to believe was morally right. I don't remember where i learned about Hitlers up-bringing, but he too was a victim of wrongful teachings. His parents were extreme prejudice and very strict to the point where Hitler LEARNED that getting rid of the BAD race was a good thing. YES, This then turned into mental illness caused from abuse, is the outcome of years of bad programming. Because there is no such things as murder being a good thing. There is self defense, but that isn't considered murder.

So basically, evil is impossible at 100%, because it's a choice to be evil, when there is always an alternative positive choice. To choose it, doesn't mean they were all evil, it means they thrived on what they were taught. They may not have even realized it was bad. Which is a shame. Morals of right and wrong is something that should be taught to all. But where is the line to say, WHAT is the perfect balance? Do we know that?

We cannot let others just push us around, and we don't want to push others around.... balance of both is all we have.
OOPS, i rambled...

I do understand many points of views here, and love the comments.
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mruppert
Posted 5/4/2008 1:28 AM (#4969 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Heeelllloo to all, and to DocJ and PJ:
     I would ask you to look at the many tapes of Hitler speaking before crowds.....I think you will find that he was a "charismatic" speaker...perhaps even mesmeric as DocJ might relate to. Look deeply at his eyes and his hands as he speaks. Look at his postures!
     My German is poor at best, as Aqua will tell you, as she is German. I am so many times removed from my country of origin, that it is a non existent language for me. But, I can understand some of what is being said. The true "architects of death" fed words to a charismatic leader...and we witnessed its end result.
     Don't we really want charismatic leaders?
     Look at AL, FDR and JFK!!!!!! Instead we settle for Nyetxon, RayGun, and Bush1 and Bush2.
      I do not say that each of them haven't accomplished or decomplished many things.....all I say is that not one single one of them have had the "charisma" to lead a nation to greatness.
      And what does this have to do with our topic.....?
      We are currently a "Christian" nation fighting an "evil" intent......but ARE WE REALLY?

Peace,Love, and Hope,
Marty and Luckylee, Poppyhead, and Blind SissyGirl
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/4/2008 5:21 AM (#4978 - in reply to #4968)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Hello All & Everyone

But then, were Hitler's parents 'evil' ? Horrendous case in Europe emerging of the man who had allegedly kept his daughter a sex slave for years & allegedly fathered children with her ... where do we draw a lne with responsibllity ? We might ask to be forgiven - n hte confessional- then repeat our behaviour (Karmic learning, [perhaps]?) ... and then there are all those abducted children ... 'Oh the horror' ...

Different types of behavour can be called different things ("What's in a name", WS, again!); but does that alter the emotional impact of the behaviour upon us, or those directly affected? Does that lessen the ethical consequences? What redeems the suffering of those to whom 'evil', or 'negative impact/consequences" [if that be a less emotive term for evil] has been done or perpetrated?

My feeling is we are seeking to describe an indescribable, especially when it gets into the bizarre realms of quantifiable awefulness (eg, Nazi Holocaust, Stalin's purges, Mao, Pol Pot, etc) - but there are also some qualitative awefulnesses, eg, long term sexual abuse on a vulnerable individual, child abducions, that do seem to require those of who believe in Something Other, to have a reasoned perspective on. I feel that the Law of Karma is one of the best, perhaps actually, the only one; but for me that resonates too with my quote from the Upanishads, and Bro. Ian's, 'god of good and evil who always chooses good'.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/4/2008 6:09 AM (#4981 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Sorry, sent the above post twice by mistake without finishing it .... checked a book called, 'The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness', by Erich Fromm (he who wrote, 'The Art of Loving'). Fromm undertook extensive research on the personalities of the 'great' dictators. He seems to conclude hat Hitler was not abused as a child; using a number of osurces, he indicates that Hitler's mother doted on him and indulged him; his father was a strict authoritarian (but who never beat him); but that Hitler himslef was always prone to fantasies, was difficult to cotnrol, stubborn, and had an overinflated sense of himself/grandiosity. There is more one could quote, but that is sufficient perhaps to add to these discussions.
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MollyB
Posted 5/4/2008 1:12 PM (#4982 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Or perhaps, a Soul contracts to experience certain 'evils' in a lifetime for the sake of wisdom, learning and their own Spiritual advancement. Or an entire Soul group contracts the same to teach a larger, more global lesson and further the Spiritual path of mankind as a whole. This makes what some would call 'evil', necessary, with purpose and even integral to furthering our Souls.

If we want to believe that there is something/someone 'out there' as a sort of Director for this grand play we are all participating in...call it the Higher Power, God, Universal Consciousness, the Great Architect, Jehovah, Allah, whatever...then it's logical to me to think that the potential for all things, even what we label as 'evil', come from that Creative Source. Conversely, if 'evil' does not originate with the All, that renders all the suffering, bloodshed, man hurting every living creature on the planet and eachother, all these horrors throughout the ages...it renders it without meaning, without purpose and containing no opportunity for wisdom. To me, that seems nonsensical and disagrees with everything I have learned from a Metaphysial and Theological standpoint.
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Paul Joseph
Posted 5/4/2008 2:39 PM (#4983 - in reply to #4052)
Subject: RE: Did God create evil?



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Wow, Molly, that's a very 'radically forgiving' statement ... you could be onto something, but that takes a lot of Grace to fathom.

Takes us back to the meaning, if there be any, in suffering.

After posting earlier, i thought I should go back and read the beginning of the Gospel of John (NT), andf the beginning of the Tao Te Ching, as I vaguley rememberd there might be things there to help; so i haven't.

But I will, unless anyone else has them handy !
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