Free Will
aschneider
Posted 12/20/2007 10:09 AM (#3270)
Subject: Free Will


Do we have free will or not?
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Aquarius
Posted 12/20/2007 2:13 PM (#3273 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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The way I understand this life is that there is one precious gift we have on this planet and that is the freedom of choice. Whether we are as yet aware of this or not, to help us grow into spiritual maturity we are constantly presented with the necessity of making choices of some kind. The way I see it is that we have this much sung freedom, but only up to a point. Someone likened it to that of a dog on a long lead; us being the dog and our Karma the lead. We all have our pre-destined pathway to walk, and each and everything has to fit into the Grand Plan. We are only allowed to veer off to the right or left, up to a certain point. Whenever we are in danger of coming off our pathway too far and are paying insufficient attention to this lifetime’s predestined lessons, something will happen that nudges us – if need be not all that gently – back into the position we are currently meant to occupy.

When difficult tests and trials come our way, we usually hate them like poison. Although frequently that is not what we want at all, we can be sure that what we are getting is exactly what we need, and that we are always treated entirely fair. During our times of strife and struggle opportunities are always being offered to us to reach out for the hand of our Highest Self, to get down on our knees and pray, so that help of some kind may come to us. Through this process our soul learns its most valuable lessons and grows. Everything that is in our Creator is also in us. And the ultimate goal of humankind to integrate all aspects of our being, the small and frightened earthly self and the Highest Self, and to bring them together so that they can work harmoniously, the same as they do in God.

The onus for consciously making wise choices is upon every individual soul. This may initially sound intimidating and scary, but at the same time it is a wonderfully empowering experience to know that whenever something is troubling us, we are not life’s helpless victims, we do have a choice. For example in the case of sickness; like all great ideas, it’s basically very simple. We can either continue our suffering or go in search of relief and – hopefully – healing. The Universe loves us and is always ready and willing to heal whatever befalls us, and to put things right again when they have gone awry. To help us with our learning, it never interferes with anyone unnecessarily. That is why small wounds and ailments heal on their own – well, they do not really do so on their own; the Universe quietly heals them for us. With Love and Light Aquarius

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mruppert
Posted 12/21/2007 11:20 PM (#3277 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi to all:
     Asch: Well, yes, of course you have free will! What would make you think you do not? The dichotomy is that those that are "free" exercise the least amount of free will; while those that are "enslaved" exercise the most.

Peace,
Marty and Free Cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, and Sissygirl, who are enslaved by comfort.
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Supernatural3
Posted 12/22/2007 12:51 AM (#3281 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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YEP, we sure do. That is why we have ghosts, spirit guides, humans, angels, etc. We wanted that~

Some people even WANT demons.... so to some, they exist too. Free will is some tricky stuff.
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mruppert
Posted 12/22/2007 1:13 AM (#3282 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Leave it to Doc to get to the root of the question:
"Free will is some tricky stuff".......
Doc has hit on some 2000 years of metaphysical tradition and learning.
The things we discuss today are nothing compared to the grand battles fought by metaphysicians of the past.....because free will, not only was tricky, but was also precious, since it was the very thing that so many wanted to suppress, and sometimes by death.

Peace and Hope,
Marty and Bob Hope Cats, on a USO tour!
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Supernatural3
Posted 12/22/2007 2:32 AM (#3283 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I know it sounds silly, but to think about it really,"free will" means that the sky is the limit. OR space, or endless infinity.... and so on. To think it, creates it, and so it shall be..... and that is what makes it tricky. Willing something, doesn't always mean we like the outcome.
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Aquarius
Posted 12/22/2007 9:44 AM (#3284 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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How right you all are - and yes, the sky is the limit; in other words our potential is unlimited. We are only just beginning to scratch the surface of becoming aware of these things, would you agree? With love - Aquarius
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Supernatural3
Posted 12/22/2007 8:53 PM (#3289 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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oh yeah, i certainly agree. I think our brains are limited due to our skull only being so big. LOL
Once we are OUT, it will all come back to us.

Just not in a hurry...... ha ha
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Aquarius
Posted 12/23/2007 8:24 AM (#3292 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Dear Jill - I don't believe that we have to wait until we are 'out', as you put it. Through our inner connection with the Highest, we can all learn to take part in and get the benefit of all the knowledge that has ever been gathered by any soul, in any of its lifetimes - including yours and mine. With love - Aquarius
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Supernatural3
Posted 12/23/2007 11:20 AM (#3293 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I suppose that is true, just a lot harder to master. We gotta think outside the bun.... as taco bell says.
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mruppert
Posted 12/24/2007 2:05 AM (#3297 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Ah Aqua....some guy described free will as "geshwind wie der wind" which Soren Kierkegaard took  great exception to. His quote was....liberally "that is the start of a  great long-winded story" ( I don't remember exact words) but he went on to write "The Sickness Unto Death", a bold defense of Christian psychology.
Alexander of Hales, a master degreed theologian, about 1200 give or take, wrote something, I think it is called "Disputed Questions (of course in Latin) and he says, and again I have to quote liberally, as I am too lazy to look it up, but I will if you want me to......"man by his nature is free, that freedom of choice resides both in the intellect and in the will"....
This guy is a 13th century theologian, and says...man BY HIS NATURE....the significance of which is that he did not say by god's will, or the divine creator, or the highest authority, or any other such thing.......
and he also said that choice, which I take to mean expression, resides BOTH in the brain and the heart, as the heart was thought to be a directive organ, though a lot of latin speakers are going to dispute me on this.
Now, also realize that I am trying to put things in everyday language, and I cannot know what either writer truly meant when they put pen to paper.
And, I am not going to bore anyone else by writing further, but if anyone likes, I will recount a history of how "free will" was thought of in various times past.
But for now,
Peace and Love,
Marty and Lucky, Poppy and Sissy...halcyon cats

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Aquarius
Posted 12/28/2007 10:27 AM (#3318 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Dear Marty - now there's a splendid idea! If you are willing to go to so much trouble, your study could provide us with a wonderful comparison - I hope - of how humankind over the centuries has slowly grown in spiritual understanding of its own true nature and destiny. Starting with what little we once had and finishing up where we are now. I look forward to your findings with great interest. With love - Aquarius
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Spiritualfun
Posted 12/28/2007 7:23 PM (#3319 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Seeing life as a mix of the material world and the spiritual one as a quant mechanic reality - as i do - the issue of free will becomes as dualistic as our total reality is.

In the material world I believe that our free will is reduced insofar that whenever we make a decision we have no other choice than to choose the one we finally end up with - which is a deterministic view in line with Spinoza and Kirkegaard. We are, as I see it, conditioned to make the choices we make, just believing we are thinking of our own, in the moment as well as strategically.

As hard as it is to study and grasp the concept whether an electron is a wave or a particle, it is as confusing to experience the both sides of our reality simultaneously.

So, beyond our conditionings our will is affected by all the input we do get from not only the other side of our own awareness, but also from all the more mundane 'leakage' we more or less unconsciously are picking up from people around us and the ones we are closer to, pretty much regardless of distance - not even to mention everything else in this world which (and who) 'speaks' to us outside of our regular 6 senses (including balance which now is a medical sense in its own merit). In my mind I see these added senses as part of the literal meaning of "The Common SENSE" (sensing the atmosphere in a room one enter or noticing that people one just has been thinking of is calling or mailing, to mentioning a few simple examples, etcetera etcetera).

As I see it, the future for the free will is limited, at least until someone has come up with a workable explanation on how to deal with our respective conditionings in this world, fully understanding the properties of our individual spiritual awareness as well as to deal with the impact of others 'leakage' without becoming isolated in this world that after all is build on total co-dependence, whether we like it or not. I am though personally pretty sure the two latter influences follows as strict laws of nature as the universe we know through our major 6 senses do (and the helping techniques we have for them).

Somehow is the concept of free will though linked to our egos, hence a necessity sprung out of our fear of not being in control, so maybe it isn't so bad to just accept that we don't have any - instead giving ourselves the peace and pace needed to work on fighting/releasing our inner fears.

Have Sun!

Edited by Spiritualfun 12/28/2007 7:27 PM
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Spiritualfun
Posted 12/29/2007 7:01 AM (#3330 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free will


I'll have to run to an appointment, but I believe you are partly right there. We may freely choose between a few basic ideas, but hardly opposites unless we are cleansed of all our conditionings (which probably is an impossible task to fully accomplish). But just by freeing ourselves of the most obvious ones we are bound to become more open for others, and less judgmental in the moment the way we 'value' everything around us. We can choose to strive in a certain direction, but not to fully become it, sort of.
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Kelly
Posted 1/6/2008 12:12 PM (#3399 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


I'd love to hear some thoughts on how free will and the Law of Attraction work together. If we have a "pre-destined" route to follow, and our free will, or choice can steer us off that path, then how does manifesting things you want come into play?

For example, let's say there is a married man. He loves his family but comes across someone else who he desires. Has he created this situation? Or is a "test" (as aschneider mentions) during his pre-destined route? If he likes the thought of being with this other person, then wouldn't he continue to create that situation through manifestation?

...tricky indeed!
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/6/2008 12:36 PM (#3400 - in reply to #3399)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Having been blessed, or cursed, with a few close relationships, and many more that could have led to one if I wasn't 'spoken for' at the time, I believe there are lots of people with whom we naturally connect all the way, also sexually.

Since I am not an unfaithful person by default, it has so far not been a problem to make the choice that it isn't very smart to continue to nurture any further encounters with such a person. I have always seen it as a sign that the existing relationship need some spicing up when it has happened.

But loving several people mentally - why wouldn't that be possible? The trick is to stop oneself with the new ones before they become wrecking and hurting.
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/6/2008 1:41 PM (#3401 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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We always want what we cannot have. (till we have it)

It's when you are content with what you do have, that makes it great.

I was a firm believer of loving more than one person, but i didn't have a true connection. (or lost it)

I feel we are meant to change if we grow. Love should always be involved and if our loved ones do not change when we do, or vice versa, then our time for change is then.

Now i still believe that, but i also believe i am with my true soul mate. I have no desire to look at anything else, because i am extremely satisfied and fulfilled with what i have now.

I have had both ways, so i understand both feelings.

I do believe i used law of attraction to find my husband i have now. I did use repetition and mantra to bring him into my life.

It worked like you wouldn't believe. (a little too much) but that is another story~ on being careful what you attract.

Blessings~
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mruppert
Posted 1/8/2008 4:01 AM (#3409 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi all:
"We always want what we cannot have. (till we have it)"
DocJ..you always say such poetic things!
This is not on the topic at all, and may sound strange, but I have always wanted to have a boat-load of money! If I had such amounts of money, the only thing I would change is that I would not rent anymore, but would buy a house. No, not a McMansion, just something suitable for me and some cats and some tons of books. I wouldn't replace Scarlett (that is my 2000 Chevy Lumina) unless and until she can no longer go from point a to point b and back. But, I would like to have a nice kitchen, and a garden, so I can grow my own herbs, as fresh herbs are much better in cooking than the dried stuff, or the store bought stuff, which is all ready pretty old and usually treated with Perma-Fresh, or some other such chemical.
     As long as I have enough money to live on, the rest of it....I would give it away...as it means absolutley nothing to me.
     For example, every Saturday, I drive by what is now called "Elizabeth House"; an offspring of the House of Ruth.....I remember when a family used to live in that house....and it was not in good shape then. It has declined further over the years ....the ladies that run it don't have any money. But, the house provides a valuable service. Suppose I could hop out of Scarlett and say, "here ya go.....take a million dollars and fix this dump up, my complements." We have a "no kill" animal shelter in Baltimore County...this costs a lot of money to maintain...suppose I could just drop a mill or two on their doorstep....?
     Oh, and no money, zero dollars, would go to institutionalized "charitable" orgs, such as, American Cancer....I mean, they have been in existence ever since I was young, and with all the money and all the time they have had...what have they done??
But, then again, every Labor Day, I pledge some money to Jerry's Kids! Why? Not because my sister has MS, but because I like Jerry Lewis, as his movies gave us, as  young children, living bleak lives , an opportunity to laugh.
Peace and Love to all,
Marty and some cats, Luckylee, Poppyhead, Sissygirl
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/8/2008 8:34 AM (#3413 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Your not alone in your feelings M.

I know it sounds sad, that i want something i always had, but no longer have it. So when i make my money. I want to buy a boat. I love the water. I was raised on the water and we used to always be out there swimming, skiing and just enjoying nature. There is nothing like being out on the lake, floating and smelling the water, tree's and fresh air. Seeing a storm come in, and throwing up the top while trying to get back to the cabin in the woods. It's been so long since i felt that, i guess i did cherish it while i had it, but sure do miss it now that i don't.

I did have the good spoiled life. But i didn't have a connection with a loved one, so i gave it up to have love. It's like starting over, but worth every bit of it.

I would love to have the money to pay for my kids college education. If i have extra, i would love to be able to give more too. I do already donate to MS. I walked in the walk-a-thon, my sister has MS too. We do it every year to help raise money for that.

I also remember the funny movies with Jerry Lewis. Laughing heals, yes you are right on with that one. I think i will use free will to bring in more humor, which will in turn heal more people, which will then make us healthy to be able to make more funds, so we can enjoy some serenity, and enjoyable exercise, to promote health and well being.

It all fits....
Blessings~


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Omjah
Posted 1/9/2008 5:43 PM (#3423 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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Do I really have free will when I find myself reacting to the world unconsciously, from old beliefs that have been programmed into me by society, my family?
The layers of this unconscious behavior go very very deep.
If the Enneagram, the Archetypes, the Astrology types, the Personality types all make up the fabric of our inborn personality, what choice did I have in this lifetime over that?
Is that who I really am?
Did the infant me choose the circumstances of my life? Did not those circumstances mold my beliefs about myself and my life?

Am I nothing but an automaton?

The only thing truly free about me seems to be awareness itself.

Why is this a question? How could we not have free will to choose this or that? Even if it is only a propensity to choose this over that. Even the God of the Judeo-Christians demands that we
"Choose this day whom you will serve. "
Nothing but ramblings here folks. No certainties. Time to quiet the mind.
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/9/2008 6:05 PM (#3424 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Forums are always about rambling... outlets, explaining to others how you feel. Regardless if it's true, fact or proven. Not much of the metaphysical field is proven, due to it being beyond physics. We have no perfect explanation. As humans, we are so limited in our thoughts, due to being programed of such limits. So yes, i agree... we are programed so much, which causes us to lose our spiritual true self. But through experience of the divine, we can get it back, and will.

I also believe that each of us is shown our own proof, if we can handle it, or ask for it. Shown proof of at least intelligence beyond our physical bodies. Through having conversations with spirit guides, or relatives whom you know are dead, does tend to bring one to the conclusion that there is more than this. Experiencing this for ones self, is the answer.

I think knowing there is FREE WILL, then puts the responsibility on each individual. I know one thing, i get tired of people saying that they didn't ask to be born in the circumstances they were born in. YET, I believe different. I do believe we chose to be born with the circumstances we are born into. Just to experience all there is. It helps us learn different circumstances.

Do i have proof? NOPE.... i just know for myself. I really don't care if others believe me, or feel it too. I for one love the feeling of knowing and that is good enough for me. I do WANT others to experience what i have. I have been blessed to have been given such spiritual experiences. It's been a very enlightening ride.

Love and Light


Edited by Supernatural3 1/9/2008 6:12 PM
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/9/2008 10:51 PM (#3428 - in reply to #3423)
Subject: RE: Free Will


There is actually a third alternative - That we both have free will and don't have it, simultaneously.

Omjahs 'ramblings' made me see it clearer.

We can freely choose to challenge our respective beliefs, even if it is harder and requires more WILL POWER the deeper they are programmed and cemented.

All, for instance armed, people of the world COULD theoretically suddenly come to the conclusion that more violence isn't the solution to the problems between people of different backgrounds, and act on it by putting down their arms - What would be required in each individual for such a miracle to happen?

All religious people and atheists of the world COULD theoretically suddenly come to the conclusion that it is a bizarre thought that their specific faith is the only really true faith on earth, and then act on it by starting to study all the other faiths closer - What would be required in each fundamental individual for such a miracle to happen?

An enormous amount of courage and will power to withstand their own inner fears of the consequences of such a FREE decision - all the way of being shot by foes not yet 'transformed', or executed by ones own for chickening out - at worst and for the sake of the discussion.

However, if all people, in a secluded group or world wide, suddenly was salvages from every inch of their fear of death - simultaneously for instance just knowing 'by heart' that life and death are 'siblings' which can't exist without the other, and as factually knowing that our lives here are only a 'field trip', a day at the beach, in our total life span - what would happen then? What kind of behaviors would we then be able to get rid of as embarrassing, immature and inefficient to make the most of our time 'at the beach' to become as lust filled and rewarding as possible?

It's somehow back at the 'ego control' isn't it - together with a lack of time perspective? It generates an illusion of free will, where the only real free will, the one to challenge ones inner fears and to muster the will power to keep them at bay, is oppressed by the illusion that our free will is something that has anything to do with what is outside of ourselves - hence we both have it and we don't as we haven't defined where it is in effect and what the boundaries for it are.





Edited by Spiritualfun 1/9/2008 11:02 PM
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/9/2008 11:39 PM (#3429 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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yes, very deep thinking indeed. I love it....

I think we are only limited while in human form. Its a vacation of experience that we chose. Then we go back home... to higher intelligence, to remember everything we forgot. We willed ourselves to this experience, because we needed to feel it, in order to learn compassion for another who experiences. At least i think that is why I did it. I cannot say for others.

Maybe this earth life is what some call or consider HELL. Denial is also hell. Ego can be our best friend, and enemy all at once.

Perhaps our intelligence is linked, but separate. As our phone lines all go to the same local building, but we have privacy for the most part. It's our own choice to pick up and use the line, connect, or hang up. It's always been our choice... and that is why we experience so much crime. That is a choice too. A bad one... but a choice. No choice is ever taken away, even if our physical body is held captive, we can still choose to mentally leave. We choose to be happy or sad. We choose to live, love, feel, see, hope, etc.

It's endless

Sometimes i cannot wait to go back... to unveil more information. But i really like it here, for now.

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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/10/2008 9:11 AM (#3431 - in reply to #3429)
Subject: RE: Free Will


I must disagree with you a bit.

Your list of free choices could only be free if the circumstances for them to be free exist, including the will power to take an other route than the one one is on the edge to enter. Backing off takes energy, so in that respect we are like big ships, causing terribly long brake marks.

i.e., it must be much more complicated than what you are giving word for, and utterly individual which choices that are easy to take, and which are not.

Group pressure is one of the strongest forces that is, as few if any, can withstand them if strong enough - if insulated from their regular environment and mind frame. "Ending up in bad company" is really not a choice for the one lacking will power and the understanding that (s)he is on the way entering such company. No much free will in that.

Most European countries and areas has much lower crime rates than the US average, despite much softer punishment and shorter sentences - and definitely no capital punishment which is abolished in all of the European countries. If what you say would be true for people with criminal 'inclinations', the opposite ought to be seen. Humankind will discuss free will into eternity unless we learn to sort, define and understand what is what - or am I wrong here?

Not that I wont say that this life isn't a hell, but for the sake of the discussion I want to make a few points on the concept.

Living ones life in many of the most popular vacation places around the world would be considered hell for the majority that goes there willingly for a week or two - at least I know several such places. And for others my hell places would be heaven, and the other way around. It's a relative concept, also within this reality as such.

The good news, in a traditional view of heaven and hell, is that IF a heaven exists, there can't be a hell.

It's plain logic and the reason is that a requisite for a heaven is that when there, one must have some kind of higher awareness, knowledge and understanding for it to be what has been promised. It would for most with some empathy become horrible to know that some people were sentenced into eternal misery, wouldn't it? Making such a heaven into hell for them, hence there can't be a hell.

Furthermore, if this is hell, in reference to 'the other side', can you imagine what the 'crime' rate at that other side then must be, given the number of living creatures on this earth alone?

I believe this is a 'vacation adventure place', and we are on our way to mess it up really good - even though safety and life expectancy has increased incredibly during the last couple of hundred years, relatively speaking. And I agree that one sometime is longing home too, but really only when one get caught by a too short time perspective, at least that is what can happen for me. When expanding the time perspective any hurdle and 'swamp' seems to become bearable and even interesting.

BTW, Jill, are you sure it is 'deep thoughts'? Maybe we have defined that wrongly too, so what about high ones? :-)



Edited by Spiritualfun 1/10/2008 9:18 AM
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/10/2008 9:43 AM (#3432 - in reply to #3423)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Omjah, your post is really great. You are really defining the scope of the problem well.
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/10/2008 10:13 AM (#3433 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I don't see anything as a problem. I do see everything being a choice. Everyone can indeed create a world (space/time) to be heaven or hell as a frame of thought. For thought creates everything. At least mine does.... for i do not know of anything, until i think it to be... then it exists for me. I can think good, bad or neutral on anything and everyone. So yes, i see the three choices.

As far as hell.... i don't believe in such a place, being forced. But i believe it to be lack of light / love. Or willing oneself to not accept love in their existence. That to me, would be hell.

Each of us has our own perspective... all are valued. Much of it makes a lot of sense. But i still stick to my own views being accurate for me. I cannot force one to see through my own eyes, but i describe what i see the best i can.

Blessings~


Edited by Supernatural3 1/10/2008 10:14 AM
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/10/2008 2:32 PM (#3434 - in reply to #3433)
Subject: RE: Free Will


You are of course right that we individually have/get our own ways of both seeing and expressing whatever. The point I am trying to make is though that it is our 'certainties' that takes our free will away - because we are not 'naturally' hardwired to challenge them, generally speaking of course.

However, if we never did, we would still be at the stone age, grunting and being slammed in our heads, or slamming others in theirs as a token of affection...

It's somehow when we dare to question our most certain truths that things MAY start to happen, isn't it?
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Omjah
Posted 1/10/2008 5:21 PM (#3435 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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I have heard that before we are born we have a discussion with our soul group, guides, masters, angels about what would we would like to learn and experience in the next life. There is a book out called "Journey of Souls" which gives more specific information which I have not read. So the idea that we may simultaneously have free will and not have free will appeals to me especially considering how dualistic our experience of life seems to be. So, perhaps we choose some pretty tough challenges before birth and those are what we have not much choice about once we are born. We can see how even infants express different characteristics, natural (or chosen before birth) expressions of personality qualities already showing before the training and molding of life experiences. I would be interested in hearing about the idea that we chose certain qualities, perhaps we chose our parents, our birthplaces,etc. before forgetting all about it.
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Tracy
Posted 1/10/2008 5:42 PM (#3436 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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I have learned that I have denied my power, abdicated my responsibility to make empowering choices for myself, and have walked like a sleeper enthralled by a dream of victimization. In this state of existence I have denied my ability to make my own choices. Now I am on a path that releases my power from my repressed and hidden shadow, bringing a new balance, harmony and passion to my life. It is easy to sleep. It takes vigilance, focus, and heart opening to make choices, to break past the habitual, to investigate one's self, and trust the unknown. We are creative beings, we choose how to express that.
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/10/2008 7:51 PM (#3437 - in reply to #3435)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Omjah, what we have discussed is though as if it is a fact that we definitely have eternal life, and that reincarnation is a valid explanation model, and your question sort of requires the proof of that that is the case.

There is a less nice explanation to the idea, and a nicer one too.

The problem with the whole concept of reincarnation is that there must be a kind of bearer of the 'awareness da jour' if that is the case. An awareness to which we are hosts or 'horses'. What do 'I' become at the other side? A new jokey for some new 'I' not yet born, or 'cattle' for whatever purpose? (just as examples). Since we obviously are unique into the core of our respective awareness, it is unlikely that we in such a case are from the same source as each new reincarnation would add more diversity than common treats, even though it is of course possible. But where does the earlier 'I's' reside when we reincarnate if they are not unique individual awarenesses in their own merit - are they going into hibernation? In any case a system like that is an elitist one by default, or at best a 'line standing - 'wait on your turn'' one.

Ok, that was the less nice scenarios to ponder over.

The nicer one is that we all are 'snippets' from the same awareness - Spirit, with a capital S if one want - where we bring with us memories from earlier snippets from the same source, or all awarenesses before us, but where the inner 'channels' are differently opened, giving us different talents and interests - and that we are returning to the same Spirit when we die, with our full harvest of experiences.

According to the linguistic research we are born with all languages but that we actually are learning away (in effect limiting ourselves), the sounds we aren't conditioned with. Is it strange that kids from affluent families have a better chance to 'make it' in later life, and that surprisingly many are following in their parents foot print? Whatever upbringing we have had, it has been a process of limiting our minds.....just in the same way our grand parents were conditioning our parents, and then they and we are spending the rest of our lives in search for the right buttons to open ourselves back up, if we are lucky enough to not having become totally brain washed.

And a child shall lead them [to salvation and the kingdom of God], as Paul has written that Jesus said, but 'a child to follow' comes through in all religions and myths, and they always seem to be such great guides saving the person who they are helping. Think of it, they always do.

"them" could as well has been be 'you', with a simple translation error or a blob of fig jam at the pergament used, which in turn could be us, or each and everyone of us now, almost 2000 years later.

Which is the ONLY child one would consider to lead oneself regarding ones total life? Ones owns inner one, isn't it? The only difference, except for the skills developed for this world, between oneself and the child one once was is the conditionings that has been applied and that we have added on ourselves. Kids don't care what faiths their friends at the park belong to, they happily walk up to a drunkard and hug him/her, they do so many 'stupid' things as every parent know....don't they, until we have taught them to judge others, then they start to fall in line, and become occasionally pretty mean to their fiends too.

We are back at the inward route for development and growth of breaking down our conditionings and thereby limitations, and, as I see it, we have very little free will until we have managed to do so.

Edited by Spiritualfun 1/10/2008 7:53 PM
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mruppert
Posted 1/10/2008 10:32 PM (#3438 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi all:
     OMG....there is so much here that I need to take notes!
     But, just a couple of things about "pespective"in looking at this, and any other endeavor in learning.
     I think it was Doc who mentioned something about "brain size." Neanderthals (as evidence indicates) had as big, or bigger brains as does Homo Sapiensae. Yet, we are around to comment on that fact, and they are not. We try to explain why they are not, and we come up with some fairly good reasons, but, the reasons may be no more valid than if I said that some aliens came and exterminated them so that we might flourish, as we are the children of the aliens. We can make educated guesses, but we cannot know.
     Someone else commented that we live longer than we did in the past. But, our life expectancy has NOT remarkably increased over those in the past, when you factor in the mode and manner of living of those in the past, and the radical advances in technology (in re health) that we now enjoy. The net result is not really significant in difference. As a matter of fact, since there was an opportunity to be "cloistered" in the past, those that chose this avenue, generally lived longer than our average life expectancy.
     It is all how you look at "it" and the "it" is always what is the question.

Peace and regards to all,
Marty and Nine Live Cats

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Supernatural3
Posted 1/10/2008 11:10 PM (#3439 - in reply to #3438)
Subject: RE: Free Will



PhD Alumni

Posts: 1674
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LOL, Silly Marty, you crack me up. I was trying to explain that being human, our brains are limited to less superior intelligence, in it's physical form. Had nothing to do with size of the brain.... but i was commenting on our skulls, keeping the brain contained. That was my attempt to explain how i see it, for being stuck, limited and programmed while human. We are so programmed, that alone will stop us from our full potential. Some of us do get lucky, and are able to go beyond our human self... but it's rare.

I know for my own fact there is life after death, that is intelligent. We keep our individualism, to a degree. I know because i have been shown this..... Or i am crazy. It does not matter to me, as i said, if others believe me or not. I know... and I'll take it.

As far as free will.... Heck, i don't even know where this topic is going to anymore. There is so much said, that it's all blended into a huge HUH? Now i tilt my head slightly diagonal, like a puppy and move on to a new bone to pick.

YES, I believe we have free will. That is what base my entire house healing course on, which works on helping ghosts leave this realm. It's been their choice to stay, it's their choice to leave. I have seen it over and over..... Tis all I know.....It works.

Peace and see ya all in a different topic.

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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/10/2008 11:36 PM (#3440 - in reply to #3438)
Subject: RE: Free Will


mruppert - 2008-01-11 3:32 AM

The net result is not really significant in difference. As a matter of fact, since there was an opportunity to be "cloistered" in the past, those that chose this avenue, generally lived longer than our average life expectancy. "

The big difference is that they now live at life expectancy for the total population in developed countries, while the rest have tripled theirs. No hard work, relatively clean environments, no stress (unless they were locked in into it), balanced food and plenty of time for reflection. Of course they lived relatively long, but the slightest sepsis or any day to day disease killed them directly, and they more often than not developed gout and such diseases. Our memories are short, but it wasn't until during WWII antibiotics was invented and no more than 160 years ago Semmelweiss understood the relationship between hygiene and diseases. And, it's a huge difference that a minute part of the population could survive while the majority died as flies.

In the geriatric research done on longevity they have found only one common denominator outside of that really long lifespans runs in families, i.e. it is genetic, and that is that those becoming 100 - 120 plus years don't mentally pile up on old crap. They let go of the bad and goes forward - forgive and live, one can say, regardless if they are forgiving themselves or others. They constantly clean their mental attics and garages, could be another analogy, I would say.

But then again, I have known very mature people who have lived full lives in their '40s when they passed over (too early of course, but without leaving behind the intense sadness one otherwise feel when younger people leave us) , and I know people in their '80s that hasn't understood much about anything yet, so longevity is somehow a relative thing too, depending on how the time has been spent, I believe. From that point of view I am personally not looking forward to a too long life, as I am not much for the fine tuning and trimming which is what old age mainly seem to offer.

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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/11/2008 12:00 AM (#3441 - in reply to #3439)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Ha, there you have it, Jill.

First though, I fully believe you as I have been there and been shown it too, when I was in my own kind of 'near death experience'.

'Ghost' has the capacity to free will, but only if they haven't been trapped in the layer in between from fear - the ones that die 'in the step' (violent and sudden deaths) and actually believe they are still alive - they need help from people with your ability and sensitivity to dare to pass over fully - they only get the free will from the understanding they can get from this side by people like you, as they don't trust the voices from the other side - I was told.

We, humans, has a very limited free will because we are more or less programmed to not have any.

I think we are in full agreement on the free will part now - but the rest is really linked to it too.

Ta da: You are writing that individualism is preserved TO A DEGREE. That become the natural effect of lowering ones ego on this side too, among others doing the same - becoming one, and yet not.

Whoa, how great isn't it to communicate and to share ones experiences....

Edited by Spiritualfun 1/11/2008 12:14 AM
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mruppert
Posted 1/11/2008 12:17 AM (#3442 - in reply to #3439)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi DocJilly:
     Yeah, crazy like a fox! I knew you knew!!
      I agree with you, there is life....as there is no death, except to leave the vessel we occupy at this movement in time. Though I won't call you DocJ, and you won't know me as Marty, we shall still be intrinsically ourselves; selves which we have been, are, and will be.
      I am interested in your house healing.Being off from work, since we are still on winter break, I have had a chance to watch some television, and saw a couple of shows....one is Paranormal something...kids at Penn State University...and the other is Ghosthunters. What do you think, Doc?
      I am highly skeptical of these shows, maybe because the father of them, the Brit show with David Acora, was exposed to have faked many of the sequences that were supposedly live. I am waiting for Ghosthunters International to go to Romania...they have been to England and Scotland, and next week, go to Italy. But, I know Romania very well, and I know where they are going. I am very curious as to what they "think" they will see!
     
Peace and Ghostly Luv,
Marty and Clairvoyant Cats
     
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mruppert
Posted 1/11/2008 1:59 AM (#3443 - in reply to #3440)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi SpiritFunster:
     All I ask is that you rethink what you said in light of what, say, 11th thru 16th century people did, and how long they lived. We cannot compare infant mortality rates, since they did not keep records of births in quite the way we do, if at all. We "intuit" these things, based on populations.
     Plus, you have emphasized my point..yes, any health related dysfunction, no matter how minor would most likely be fatal, until a certain point in time...the time of the blending of metaphysics and science...generally around the end part of the 16th century (late 1500's) and continuing into the 18th century (1700's). The 19th century (1800's) was a mixture of advances and setbacks, as this was the rise of industrialism....which would have the most profound and lasting effect on us, health and longevitywise.
     Think about this, SFun, if you were to be transported back to the year 1001, you would have trouble breathing....you would feel lightheaded and strange! Though you are "around and about" you are used to breathing our air...air which is so pollluted with things that we can measure, (but not know the long term effects) that the purer air of the 1000's would be as if you were in an oxygen tent. I dare say, and only surmise, that a person from the 1000's would most likely find a great difficulty breathing even our most pristine air, as fouled as it is.
     Your second interesting observation is that longevity is genetic. Yes, you are completely right! Whether they pile up "old crap" or not, they are predispositioned to live longer than most. But, I am not really worried by the "old crap" as the operative word is "genetic". These blessed people live because of gene strands, passed on in procreation, sometimes recessive for many generations. But, if you do the simple Mendal box, you will see how it oftentimes works out.
      The concept that one individual might have the power of healing another; that one individual might have the power of sight, is almost unilaterally connected to forebears. I grant you that there are instances of spontaneous acquisition and demonstration of these powers, but most of these are clothed in context of some religion or other such spiritual belief, where there is verification, either by positive reinforcement or negative rejection...which, by the way, only serves to strengthen a "new" belief.
     Just as you said longevity is genetic; healing and sightedness is also genetic. That is why I still say, you cannot buy a book or take a course and become a healer, a "true' healer. Now, before everybody gets really upset, I AM NOT  saying that one cannot do a world of good for people, by studying and applying certain techniques...that is not what I am talking about.
     My hero, who has been named "Dynamo Jack" by the YouTube generation, set the newspaper on fire by understanding the nature, and utilizing,  chakra energies. He "learned" this. Never mind the YouTube stuff, go back to the original tapes called "Ring of Fire, An Indonesian Odyssey." He sets the newspaper on fire.....and heals one of the Blair brothers.
     My beloved Research Associate also heals people, and she tells me constantly how she used REIKI technique or matrix energetics or quantum touch. When we first started our study, some three years ago, I believed that. As we dug deeper into projects that we were collaborating on, I asked her if she has a "family" history of healing. She replied that her mother and her aunt and her grandmother on an on all had this unique ability.
     One evening, after some glasses of wine (we are doing this long distance by the way, as I am in the USA and she is in GB, but still in vino est veritas) I asked her if it really mattered what technique she used.....and her answer was "no, but it gives me focus for the energy that I can pass on." In essence, she spent thousands of pounds for what she all ready had!!!!!
     I am rambling, but have been preforgiven by another poster, I think it was the great DoctorJ.....my final thought is that "old age" is a concept.....as applied by those that are contemporaneous with us/me? SpiritFun,
<From that point of view I am personally not looking forward to a toolong life, as I am not much for the fine tuning and trimming which iswhat old age mainly seem to offer.>
     WHY? Why do you say this? Each new day, week, month, year, offers new opportunities to blossum and revitalize. And, to learn just a little, tiny bit more of why you and I and all are here, and what we truly seek. The concept of most that there is a decline....but I believe that there is an ascent, and we shall continue until we reach the apex. Whereupon, we launch ourselves skyward (metaphorically and practically).
Peace, hope, and luv,
Marty and Eternal Cats
    
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mruppert
Posted 1/11/2008 3:34 AM (#3445 - in reply to #3441)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi Spitfun,
     We humans have all the free will we want, but we "societal" humans have virtually none. The compact we make to have "society" immediately subjugates free will to norms and mores.
In this, I agree with you.
     When it is the will of the majority of those that compose the society, at least it is democratic, but that is not always a good, or virtuous thing. Democracy is what it is, the rule of the majority.
      When the democratic process becomes institutionalized, there is a degree of control, that becomes more and more invasive, yet subliminal.
      Try to imagine a time when a presidential candidate came to your town ( if you are in the USA ) and spoke to YOU, to try to win your vote. This doesn't happen anymore, we have "electronic" campaigning via television, i.e, we don't see the hundreds of people that candidates speak to in the "primaries"...we only see video bits of the best of the best.
      Should we really care how people 'would" vote in Iowa? NO!
All I want them to do is to grow better corn, because I like to eat all kinds of corn..corn on the cob, creamed corn, white corn, golden kernel. Should we really care how people "would" vote in New Hampshire? NO! All I want them to do is to do whatever it is that they do, which is nothing I can think of, though I am sure that they do something.
      HENCE, you see the "programming" that you refer to in many aspects now. I am programmed just as any others...and many others. It is simply because I do "care' that people succumb to this nonsense.
     Okay, the rant is over.......Spirit...what did you see as a NDE?
      Why do you think that "ghosts" have  free will but  should obey your directive to go where they may not want to go? Might they be telling us that it ain't so good to go wherever they are supposed to? Why would you want to force them to do what they clearly do not want to do?
Peace n' luv,
Marty and Ghoulish Cats, dead many times!
     
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/11/2008 5:05 AM (#3446 - in reply to #3443)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Thanks for the answer on your studies. I completely understand your British friend. It really doesn't matter how it is done. I understood I had a pretty strong healing ability by accident, and as an old atheist, after already long ago have read most of the religious major scriptures of the world, so I came into it from another angle than what maybe most have.

When it started, and I had overcome the initial chock, I tried out all kind of mediums and healers, as research, but I refrained from reading anything, of the simple reason that I didn't want to lock myself up, mind wise. However, some of these I tried out had a natural 'air' about their procedures which I felt 'was right for me' so I tried to take after them in my initial trial and error efforts. There is no known individual in my family history with any healing abilities (if my engineer business manager father who was fantastic in putting on band aids and taking care of our minor ailments, and my mother being a dentist taking care of the more serious ones - sewing us kids up when having cut ourselves etcetera - doesn't count).

It was very odd for me initially, but I have come to the conclusion that it is all about the courage to accept this inbuilt capacity. That I can say from the 60 percent I have seen being able to do it themselves of all the ones I by now have instructed. I am sure that I within 10 minutes would be able to instruct you too. Having any of the other sensitivities is a sure bet that anyone is a natural healer too, and simple stuff as muscle strains is a piece of cake to teach others to heal.

When I re-read all these scriptures, after my trip, but now with new eyes, I saw that everyone of them are describing these abilities within us, and essentially they are all saying the same thing. Whatever the names on their own deity are, we can find it within - by exploring our hidden resources - but the language really becomes a problem if one get stuck with one particular such 'school'. That I have learned when I lately have started to read up on the many 'spiritual/psychic schools' around. Also I am using a kind of adjusted Reiki methodology, and would because of the home made turns probably get into problem if I would aspire to get 'licensed' at the different Master levels they have. But that is I, and for me all such structuring is about 'crossing the stream to fetch water' and systems of seclusion, but then I have on the other hand no intent to make this my business either (unless maybe writing a book about it later - 'Psychic resources in the skeptic dummies', or something like it - but that I can do when having retired and if nothing more fun turns up).

Now, when the novelty of it has worn off, I help people who ask me, and I really don't back off for any such request, however serious disease anyone may have (but of course I tell them to seek a medical diagnosis and proper health care if they don't have already done so - it goes hand in hand). The only strange thing is that the diseases I am really sure I can really help a lot of people with hasn't come my way yet - but I guess there is a reason for that too.

I have seen the movies about Dynamo Jack too, and he is surely something. Of course, we have more or less of these abilities naturally, but in its 'raw' form we can all find it, if just accepting the change of mind that is necessary. That I have seen so many times now, and it really is just a matter of 'attitude' toward the phenomenas as such.

LONGEVITY:

The research I have read is clear. Genetics is important, but not enough for the ones reaching 100 plus.

At least the Scandinavian countries has very well documented church records on its citizens since the '1200s, as the church was the main tax collector there. Actually was the middle ages not bad at all in Europe. It was warm climates with a lot of wine growing both in Britain and Scandinavia, good harvests of all kinds and comparable little warfare up until the early '1400s in most of Europe, and the black plague was around for only a few years (most written documentation found are actually love poems and ballads, which is pretty telling I think). From the mid '1500s it got worse. The little ice age started (with a lot of paintings as south as in Italy of people skating on the frozen rivers), and most of Europe was more or less in constant wars until the end of the Napoleonic wars in the early '1800s, after which the Europeans really started to export its power play and bullying over the world. In the mid '1800s the potato plague, which started in Ireland almost wiped out the major parts of Northern Europe, at which the huge emigration to North America started - Freedom of Religion, being a bonus in most peoples decisions to leave. However from there on the number of births of super olds has escalated sharply:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people#Oldest_people_ever_.2811...

Interestingly is that one needs to go to the Old Testament to find anything distinctive about old age earlier - Methusalem becoming 900 + years etcetera, etcetera, etctera. They are of course mythical, but I have started to think if it maybe is a translation error, just as '6 eons' has been translated into '6 days'. The old Hebrew word for anything that was 'uncountable' was 'an eon', with regards to time it would then maybe be 'ages'. (much later an eon has become to be the number 10.000) I have no clue here, but potentially is the OT describing the first humanoids and their relative life spans, as races instead of individuals??? It's probably wrong, but I like the idea.

Have Sun!
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/11/2008 8:28 AM (#3447 - in reply to #3442)
Subject: RE: Free Will



PhD Alumni

Posts: 1674
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Location: NE Ohio

Hey Marty,
Weird.... I was just asked this by another dear friend too. So i will try to be honest, with out hurting feelings of those who may stumble upon this section (if they happen to be in the shows).

Paranormal State is filled with Drama. They hype it up and throw a bunch of sounds to freak out the viewer, but they call a lot of things evil and demonic. They base things on the two main concepts of religion and well.....for us non religious people..... It's unrealistic and it's not really like it is when your in the field doing it. While i personally got to know one of the people in the cast and in real life Chip Coffey IS a very talented Psychic / Medium. He is a truly wonderful person i had him on my show. It's acting, yet they do use real people, who do this for a hobby. So I cannot say the show is totally rotten. I have only watched it once and couldn't stand that they were scaring the crap out of viewers, making them "think" that such demons exist everywhere, when it simply just isn't the case. They want ratings though... so you cannot blame them for adding the spice.

Ghost Hunters is the closest to real you can get on TV. Jason and Grant will try to honestly debunk everything, and that is truly what it takes. They took out the drama and do not fake anything that i know of. Grant has been ghost hunting for 14 years and Jason has 16 years experience under his belt (i fall exactly in between the two). But what i do like about their show is the drama that is added, is real life stuff. It's not religious, it remains pretty neutral. The music...well.... sci-fi has to add some kind of whistles and bells. But lets face it... Paranormal Investigating is a very long, and sometimes very boring thing to do. We walk around in the dark, and shoot footage that is most the time it's of nothing. LOL Going over the footage takes enormous amounts of time. At least in Ghost hunters, they skip all the time involved, but they keep it real.

Most Haunted.... I cannot stand to watch it. It's completely faked in my own opinion. It is so filled with drama and BS that i cannot tolerate watching it. Unless it's for comical reasons. I do not know the cast at all and i refuse to watch someone fake being possessed each and every time they are somewhere. It's comical....

Marty, if you email me direct, i will send you my Thesis on the House Healing for Ghost Hunters. I call it that, but anyone can do it. It really helps to be Reiki attuned, (for the knowledge of Life Force Energy, and how to channel it). Best of all.... it works. -Or, i have convinced the members of the house that it works??? i did use 3 main factors of NLP. One ups(my experience), Paradigm (course), and FEELING it (sage smoke, holding hands, giving healing love). It's amazing to really put NLP to work. Convincing those who have experienced ghosts nightly to not experience it anymore, or did I convince the ghost that they were able to move on... I do actualyl talk to the ghost while i am there, and use my healing energy on them, and since i cannot know 100% if they hear me, I generalize it towards the entire home. However, they sleep at night now, and that didn't happen from the moment they bought their home. I did base this entire course on FREE WILL. and yes.... i do believe that we can as well as ghosts can get stuck in a state of confusion, that will keep them trapped in a lower realm. But this doesn't mean they wouldn't eventually move on with out me. It's only us that experiences time. (that i know of).

I think we are all coming to the same conclusion in this topic.
I hope this helps
Love and Light~
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/11/2008 8:41 AM (#3448 - in reply to #3445)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Why do you think that "ghosts" have free will but should obey your directive to go where they may not want to go? Might they be telling us that it ain't so good to go wherever they are supposed to? Why would you want to force them to do what they clearly do not want to do?


I didn't say that. but take it for what it is, but as I understood it this is how it somehow works:

Some, I don't know the ratio but all in all not comparably many, appearently get stuck on their way, because they don't understand they are dead, ending in a state of mental limbo, not understanding the transformation is underway, just that something has happened with them. Appearently fully passed over souls can make their way into this gray zone too, but out of fear the former ones climb to what they know best, which is this side. They need the supportive words from the ones that can communicate with them from this side to dare to let go, and pass over fully.

I can't vouch for that this is right, but it is what I have been shown, and that part of my 'trip' wasn't explained very much in detail, hence one of the reasons for why I am here to try to find the bits and pieces that are missing. I was primely shown the functionalities around healing, and how we energy wise are linked with the 'central unit' of the spirit, and that we all has all answers we need within us. It started with me seeing my body becoming dissolved into billions of energy quanta, at which I was sure I was dying, and then the trip through the universe, with a guide who didn't present himself (I believe it was a 'him'), telling me how most things work and are related in bigger picture way. Everything was extremely well ordered, and I was even putting forward some questions, especially about my mother who was seriously ill (at which the guide explained that she was too old and naturally weak to be able to fully reverse her 'decaying' body into former shape - but that it would be able to make her feel much better), but nothing else was really presented into detail. I understood there is a Creator, that everything in our universe exist within it (but I got the idea that It was somehow indifferent to the earth and us specifically - we are more like a small small piece in a bigger machinery), that Its thought of our universe was the big bang (plans, rules and Laws of Nature etcetera) and that everything is about energy and the way energy is interacting - everything is woven of light in different densities and shapes and with different properties accordingly. That the setup is copied downward and upward, just as Russian dolls are stacked within each other and that everything has to do with opposites, conditionings, memory, codependence and cooperation. That we screw things up with our fear filled egos and because we are letting our memories to be filled with unnecessary old crap (that take up capacity from the natural inner healing energies, causing bottle necks for the nightly maintenance our brains are set to do), that the way out of the fear and conditionings is through forgiveness etcetera etcetera. It took maybe 30 - 40 minutes during which I was only very faintly aware of the sound from the TV-set, and that my love was sitting up in bed beside me.

When I came back into my body I got a bit crossed that the person I knew so well didn't even notice that I had been 'dead' [ ;-) ] but then I decided that I must had been hallucinating it all from being so tired and drained.

The day after I called my mother at her hospice (she hadn't been out of her bed for a month, due to a full fledge skeleton cancer, and the doctors talked about maybe two more weeks for her to live, but she greeted me with that she had been up and walking several times in the morning and that she had realized that one die when one is deciding oneself to do so - and that she had decided to not die yet - she lived another six months, perfectly clear until about a week before she passed over). A couple of hours later I accidentally got reason to attend to a person who had a huge fresh burn over the lower arm from boiling water, and of some reason I asked if I could try my hand instead of the regular water and ice remedy, and within 15 minutes all of the red and half of the growing blister was gone.... I was like a wet rug though, and became a bit chocked when what I had been experienced started to sink in.

Obviously wasn't it a hallucination, and my world turned up side down, I must say, and I started to re-read the different scriptures while clumsily trying this new ability - initially feeling really stupid every time I tried, but somehow it just came to me what I was supposed to do.

I don't have the kind of medium sensitivity myself naturally, seeing dead people, unless for a few times when I have been able to connect with a few of my close relatives, such as my parents -my mother coming through somehow telling how it works, but otherwise not at all so that I can see or hear any 'ghosts'. Once I have been the target for a practical joke by one. I was fooled to walk up in the middle of the night believing that it was time to go up - I walked down to make breakfast for the kids, enough morning sounds from their rooms and bathroom for me to not having to wake them up, or questioning anything until I was almost ready with the breakfast and I realized it was 3 a clock in the morning - The kids were of course sound asleep when I checked on them. I got totally fooled, and I am soo sure I heard both my own alarm clock and the kind of noise the kids are doing in the morning when dressing. But who it was, and why, I have absolutely no idea about.

One thing I really just must point out though - this isn't a specific gift for me - it's a misused capacity we all harbor. And it is somehow so simple to access that even the least probable person to access it should be able to do it. That stood also extremely clear from the tour. There is no need for any special practices or prayers or religious over tones - one just need to relax enough to let oneself into a state of extra sensitivity, and to have faith in that 'one actually can' - that's it.
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/11/2008 8:47 AM (#3449 - in reply to #3441)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Spiritualfun - 2008-01-11 12:00 AM

Ha, there you have it, Jill.

First though, I fully believe you as I have been there and been shown it too, when I was in my own kind of 'near death experience'.

'Ghost' has the capacity to free will, but only if they haven't been trapped in the layer in between from fear - the ones that die 'in the step' (violent and sudden deaths) and actually believe they are still alive - they need help from people with your ability and sensitivity to dare to pass over fully - they only get the free will from the understanding they can get from this side by people like you, as they don't trust the voices from the other side - I was told.

We, humans, has a very limited free will because we are more or less programmed to not have any.

I think we are in full agreement on the free will part now - but the rest is really linked to it too.

Ta da: You are writing that individualism is preserved TO A DEGREE. That become the natural effect of lowering ones ego on this side too, among others doing the same - becoming one, and yet not.

Whoa, how great isn't it to communicate and to share ones experiences....


Hey Spiritualfun,
I couldn't agree more. Yes, somehow we do keep our individualism. I thought prior that when we crossed, we ended up in some blender and we were all mixed together again, as one source. But it's not really the case. We may be all connected somehow, but we do have separate thought. At least everytime i channel my guides, or others, they have personalities. I don't really sense much EGO, just always pretty charming. But that is the higher realm. The lower realm is filled with EGO and is very materialistic still, guess it takes a while to adjust. The higher the realm of spirit, the more inteligence is there. The lower, the more confused and blocked. That is what i gather from talking with my guides.

My own channeling session:

After my mother in-laws passing two weeks ago, i was still able to directly communicate with her two days before her funeral. I even seen how she looked (or decided to present herself to me). She was radiant, and younger, She was being kept busy on purpose. She knew this as she explained it to me. "They were keeping her detained at least until her funeral, because it's therapeutic". It was so weird to me to see that they were having a party on the other side, like a welcome back "graduation" party. She was loved by many, the room was filled with many. The others wouldn't come into my space (my waiting area or safe zone) for the two sides to meet and communicate, but they did keep popping their heads in to check on her. She did however tell me a few names that i didn't know. 5 of them to be exact. All 5, my husband knew. I did not. These were not typical names either. It was more like odd names that i actually felt silly saying, but he knew them right away.

Love each other, it heals~


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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/11/2008 9:46 AM (#3450 - in reply to #3449)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Jill: "The lower realm is filled with EGO and is very materialistic still, guess it takes a while to adjust. The higher the realm of spirit, the more inteligence is there. The lower, the more confused and blocked. That is what i gather from talking with my guides."

Do I read "ego, materalistic, confused, blocked'? They are all reactions of fear. The new way I am looking at such people is amazingly non-aggevating. I just see it and never need to attack their fears with my own anymore - as it it just causes another unnecessary fight. That is the best upside, even though I have never been an aggressive person - but somewhat assertive and stubborn over the rim, which essentially is the same thing.

But releasing ones fears are sometimes pure hell too, so all in all I very often wonder if this change of things hasn't been a curse rather than a blessing, at least for me. It would have been much better if George Bush had got this type of experience instead of me - one thing is for sure, violence never pays. Re-evaluating everything that ones was stable and comforting isn't fun, but once on the road one really has no way of turning back and forget about it all.

Have Sun!
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/11/2008 9:53 AM (#3451 - in reply to #3448)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Spiritualfun - 2008-01-11 8:41 AM

Why do you think that "ghosts" have free will but should obey your directive to go where they may not want to go? Might they be telling us that it ain't so good to go wherever they are supposed to? Why would you want to force them to do what they clearly do not want to do?


I personally do not force anything to go anywhere.... all i do is heal them. Once they are healed, we simply let them know they can stay or go, as they always have been able to. Most the time, when healed... the confusion stops and they have no desire to stay in the rut they were previously experiencing. I make no promised, because it's never been my choice. I just heal, and they do the rest. Make sense? Not once would i ever say... HEY GHOST, you must LEAVE NOW! I might say, HEY ________ (if i know their name, i will use it) you've been being naughty... why? I may ask them to have some respect for the current owners, as we will respect their wishes to stay or go. I always say they are welcome to stay, for the homeowners would love that, but also just want some rest.... please help too.


Spiritualfun, your story is great. Seems you have been called upon to heal. How wonderful~ I too always feel like an idiot when i get my info, or heal things. I always expect people to think i am a nut case, or full of crap. But then, somehow... it works. AMAZING.... even i am amazed. I then say... it's my guides... they did it. I don't even take credit, i am just a vessel.

I do not communicate with ghosts very well... i communicate with higher spirits. My mother in law was not a ghost, she had already left earths realm, i had to go to her. But my grandfather did come to me in the flesh, but not as a ghost either, he had already changed. I do however let my channel guides communicate with the lower realm. It's like my line of communication is higher than that of a ghosts line of communication. Only sometimes do i get to actually interact, but it's rare. I don't see ghosts... i can feel or sense them only. I have seen them before, which is why i am a firm believer. But, they rarely talk direct, but somehow, communication and interaction does take place, because it works.

I know exactly what you are talking about, it's crazy and amazing at once.
Blessings~



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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/11/2008 10:09 AM (#3452 - in reply to #3451)
Subject: RE: Free Will


You answered Martin in the first paragraph, taking his line from my post - just for the record if you missed my clumsy attempt to 'quote'.

I envy everyone having a guide. It was terribly nice to be guided, even if I couldn't see 'him', but after the tour I, except for once when the same kind of presence was felt, haven't 'had' any such support - even though I have asked for one to become more instructive.

Jill, don't you agree that it really only is about ones 'attitude'?

From there, having seen it work enough times and it become as natural as seeing or hearing - and physical too, even if it is a constant learning process to trim ones efforts, and to trial and error a lot too.
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/11/2008 12:39 PM (#3453 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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There have been so many posts.... he he..... that i now can barely remember who said what, with out going back through them all, while trying to remember. NAW.... I think we all have the same conclusion. Hmmmm YEP!

I sometimes feel lost too... or left alone. But then i give a swift kick in the butt of my guide (mentally) and say... c'mon, your slacking... get with it and gimme a hug. LOL They do have senses of humor... they have to.... they deal with me.

I always swore that my guides must be getting bonus points for my case. HA HA HA

I hope they are laughing too... I think so~

It's all good

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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/11/2008 5:52 PM (#3454 - in reply to #3451)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Jill: "Seems you have been called upon to heal."

I am not longer so sure that is the case, Jill. If so I would probably be less aware of the 'technology' involved and not having such an easy time to 'diagnose' rather than to heal, AND (which I start to understand) having such ease in 'passing it on' to others, physically passing it on, that is.

I'm never going to be a Dynamo Jack character in the healing business (it doesn't appeal a bit to me, and I am far too lazy and comfortable), but I could very possible become a kick starter and a coach of many others who have the drive to make it their life vocation. I have been working as a personal self development coach for business people for nearly 20 years, so that kind of a role is certainly not new to me.

I knew the discussions in here would lead to something positive. THANK YOU, Jill, from the bottom of my heart! You have just made me see a very important piece of my puzzle, that make so many others fall in place too. And yet I had it in front of my eyes all of the time. Isn't that amazing - now I just need to finance it or to find a platform to work from.
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/12/2008 10:39 AM (#3455 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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You are very welcome...and Thank you, too. these forums have helped my eyes and mind to open far more than i expected as well.

Many blessings~
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mruppert
Posted 1/13/2008 1:11 AM (#3458 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi all:
     Jilly, I will pm you in a sec....
     Spirity.....you are marvelous!
     I, too, have gotten lost in this forum. There is so much to read and think about. Aquarius embraced the idea I had about a recounting of the historical aspects of the concept of free will. This is something that I would love to undertake. But, there is so little time; and it would take some figuring out how to structure it, as it would most likely take on the same form as this forum. Any suggestions?

Peace and Love,
Marty and Sun worshipping Cats
(In the winter months, the sun comes in through my small window in my bedroom....the cats have a place on the carpet that they sleep because the sun hits that spot directly. Cats are generally aware of things even when sleeping, but not so when they are lying in the sun....they are a trillion miles away from the reality of what is going on around them).
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/13/2008 11:25 AM (#3459 - in reply to #3458)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Martin: "Spirity.....you are marvelous! "

Thank you, Martin, it always nice to be seen, but I am no more so than most. Just lucky this spiritual roller coaster didn't made me go crazy from the confusion I first experienced. I learned to realize what the word 'reborn' really mean. It doesn't have a yota with religion to do, it's about landing on ones feet within a new expanded world view - independently if such a view is correct or not. My sense of adventure is what made me start to explore this for me new side of life and its landscapes, really only having the tools to navigate safely in this part of it. After the first highs I realized that it must be pretty much the same ones in that part as in this, except the active focus to take out ones inner fears to become able to subject oneself to the 'new' sensations - nothing else really makes any sense, at least not for me who just can't subscribe to any particular faith or 'established' belief system (thereby not saying they couldn't be great for others).

The development of belief systems are somehow much more an effect of pedagogic problems than anything that has anything with the core traits and values of humankind as such to do. We need to learn much more about ourselves, generally, individually and holistically before being able to create a somewhat pertinent model for our lives and potential 'bigger' purpose - that's what I believe.

In the mean time.....Have Sun!

Edited by Spiritualfun 1/13/2008 11:30 AM
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Aquarius
Posted 1/13/2008 1:32 PM (#3460 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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'Jill: "Seems you have been called upon to heal."' 'I am not longer so sure that is the case, Jill.'

Dear Jill and Spiritualfun - the way I see it, we're all in this world now to to be healed and - through it - become healers in our own right. With love - Aquarius

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Aquarius
Posted 1/13/2008 1:35 PM (#3461 - in reply to #3459)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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'Aquarius embraced the idea I had about a recounting of the historical aspects of the concept of free will ... Any suggestions?'

Dear Marty - nobodoy else is a wonderfully qualified to carry out such a study as you are. So, don't procrastinate, get going! With love - Aquarius

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Aquarius
Posted 1/14/2008 10:34 AM (#3464 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Dear Spiritualfun,
I would like to share with you a few of my reflections of what I meant when I said in my previous posting to you that we are all here to find healing and to become healers in our own right.


CHIRON – THE WOUNDED HEALER

As many of us are aware by now, we are spirit and soul, temporarily encased in matter. However, for wise evolutionary reasons it became necessary in the past that in our conscious state we should loose all knowledge of our immortality and oneness with God. Because of this, since time immemorial, humankind has lived with legends of heroes, who gave up their immortality to become earthlings. Teachings that have their origin in the great wisdom of our Divine parents have always been with us. As mentioned before, they are known as the Ancient wisdom and came into our world to help humankind to make some sense of our earthly existence. During past ages they came to us in the form of myths. As we gradually evolved and could grasp more of their underlying esoteric meaning of the teachings they concealed, the tales and stories given to us became more sophisticated, shall we say?

The myth of Chiron, the wounded healer, illustrates this better than anything else. Ever since this tale came into our world, it has been trying to tell us about none other than you and me. When we left the state of oneness with the Source, to begin the long journey of developing as individual beings, soul received a deep wound which has never healed. Each one of us is a wounded healer, waiting to find release from this evolutionary phase again and be healed. As we re-awaken to the knowledge of our true self, this process gets going with great strength. It gathers ever more momentum through our steadily increasing awareness that our physical body is but a shell for our true and Highest Self; and that the spirit of the living God dwells within every cell and atom of our whole being, including our physical body. God is always with us; God has never left us and experiences everything with us. When we suffer, God suffers with us; when we enjoy ourselves, God does the same; and when we are healing, God is healing us and with us. Best of all, because of our inner connection with all life, when we are healing, everything throughout the whole of Creation heals with us.

There is a wound deep within everybody’s soul consciousness that refuses to heal. It was caused by the separation from our Great Parents, when it was decided that we should descend into matter and develop into individual beings. Ever since then, our soul has been living with this pain. There always has been within every soul a great yearning and longing for its true home. But only now has the time come that each one of us being guided back to our roots and origin, to be re-united with the Source of all Life. And that is why each one who is presently on the Earth, each in their own right, has the potential of becoming a healer, seed carrier and bringer of light. In spiritual terms, light means wisdom and knowledge. What then is a healer? It is simplicity itself! We fulfil that function each time we help another so see their way forward in life more clearly; when we help someone to understand that bit better who they are and why they are here, why people and things come into everybody's life and leave it again; when we help someone to see that there is no death. We are healers when we offer someone a shoulder to lean or cry on, maybe a hand to hold; when we bring renewed hope to someone by empathising with them, maybe helping them to view a difficult situation from a different perspective. Healers do these things not because someone tells them to, but because that is what they want to do. They are following an inner urge to be true to their real nature, which is love. Having found some measure of light, they feel the need to share and help others to do the same for themselves.

With Love and Light,
Aquarius

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Supernatural3
Posted 1/14/2008 8:08 PM (#3467 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I am sure you are correct, seems we all do heal those we love, even if we don't try... it just happens. The power of love~ As it was our choice though to love them.
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/15/2008 4:24 AM (#3468 - in reply to #3464)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Aquarius, thank you, that is a very good description that resonate pretty much spot on with my own experience. Word wise I have put it as if everything living is sent out as explorer 'ships' from a 'mother ship', at which the communication between them get distorted, but we all bear within us a 'survival kit' of memories which we are more or less connected to. However, this memory connection together with the intermittent flashes of connectivity make us to search for structure and reason in more or less screwed up religious and spiritual ways (no pun intended to anyone - I am here searching too). Looking for simplicity was one of the lessons learned from my 'trip', though. Everything spiritual (in its broadest sense) was said and shown much more straight forward and intuitive than I could have ever been able to come up with by my own wits and imagination.

Its an incredible interesting puzzle though.

Have Sun!
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Aquarius
Posted 1/15/2008 9:25 AM (#3469 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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I couldn't agree more with both of you! And yes, spiritualfun, this life and our existence in it is an incredibly puzzling and wonderful thing! We are here to make some sense of it and any knowledge we gather is stored in the memory bank of our own soul, that of the group we are spending our present lifetime in, and also in the great soul of our world and finally the one of the whole of Creation. No experience is ever wasted, somebody somewhere learns something from it. If that ain't wonderful, please tell me what is?

With love - Aquarius

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mruppert
Posted 1/15/2008 11:01 AM (#3470 - in reply to #3459)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Spiritualfun - 2008-01-13 11:25 AMMartin: ldn't be great for others). The development of belief systems are somehow much more an effect of pedagogic problems than anything that has anything with the core traits and values of humankind as such to do. We need to learn much more about ourselves, generally, individually and holistically before being able to create a somewhat pertinent model for our lives and potential 'bigger' purpose - that's what I believe.

Hi Spearitchewal Phun.....
     I think it was Cause who said, in another forum, that he has a (very valid, my words) sense that humankind, on some scale, is experiencing a turn to spiritualism with the coming of the age of Aquarius, (the time, not the person we know here...a little humor, and as usual very feeble).
     I would remind all that this search for a belief system (and I argue that it is a belief system) is not new.
     For a great portion of human history, peoples lives were filled with animism, and spiritualism; as the predominant means by which to live life with meaning of some sort; and answer those very difficult questions that life presents. This is true on both an individual and societal scale.
     But, just as happens to us now, a new idea came along that subjugated the then current idea. The most profound one was monotheistic religion, and I don't think anyone would argue when I say that Judaism, Islam and Christianity had the most powerful impact on us of all time. Of the three, all began life as "mystical" religions,  with two others far moreso than Islam. Hierachical structures de-emphasized the mysticism in favor of dogma. Still, all three purport to teach principles that are indeed, "golden rules" and read splendidly as a course and code for living.
     The problem (as I see it)  is not the pedagogy, it is the very simple fact that  all three FAILED as belief systems that people live by. Islam is not a movement of peace; Christians routinely break one or more of the ten commandments; and Jews routinely break the hundreds of commandments embodied in the writings that are handed down. Religion, overall, fails to do what it set out to do.
     Some of us recognize this failure and seek another path. But that path is, part and parcel, that which came before the rise and dominance of the three great monotheistic belief systems.
    
Peace and Love,
Marty and Cats (with spirits and souls; after all millions of ancient Egyptians can't be wrong, or can they?)

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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/15/2008 9:20 PM (#3471 - in reply to #3469)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Aquarius, the consequence of what you are saying is wonderfully simple as it solves the ethic dilemma of the free will.

If we assume that evil actions is a consequence of fear (as well as fear ridden actions out of good intent) then the whole issue of revenge can be left out of the equation. The problems people are facing with regards to each other is simply a matter of different levels of the understanding that that is the case. Like finding oneself navigating in waters that suddenly to ones perception has become full of hidden rocks beneath the surface. In the beginning of experience this sensitivity I got upset that people I have known and trusted for so long were lying all the time. I just hadn't seen it and hence I naturally started to question my initial intuitive conclusions of that it was the case - hidden rocks appeared on my otherwise well known sea chart, making me both offended and a bit paranoid regarding these people, especially when I noticed that they had noticed that I could see straight through them.

I believed they had changed while the whole 'problem' was created by my better vision. It was terrible confusing and in a few cases so bad that I couldn't excuse them for having become such liars. Now I can see why they 'had' to lye, and that adding my taught way of handling such a behavior just made things worse. The problem being that we can only rely on our own sea chart, for our own actions, realizing that everybody else has their individual own chart to navigate from. The opposite being the ultimate cause of discord and also the ultimate egotism among humans.

Martin: "Islam is not a movement of peace".

And where does that judgmental conclusion come from? You don't think there is at least as many militant Christians and Jews around? What about the military hawks in the U.S and Israel, just as a starter? The majority of the Muslims are not involved in any warfare, either. As absolute most wherever, they mind their own business and try to survive as good as they can given their particular individual circumstances and limitations. We are all 'victims' of our respective systems, and I am sure many older Germans, Russians and Chinese can vouch for that, just mentioning a few that has really stood out during the last 70 - 90 years. Who has the right to judge Americans or others from the Western World for raping our common resources, just as one little example of the same kind of victimization? The concept that any change starts with one self really is true, but what shall one do with the ones that don't dare to start their own inner process of fear cleansing - beat them to it?

Edited by Spiritualfun 1/15/2008 9:24 PM
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mruppert
Posted 1/15/2008 11:10 PM (#3472 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Hi Spear-It...and all;
     Ah, I see that making things short "forum-bytes" leads to misunderstanding.
     You are absolutley right in what you say. There are MORE militant Christians and Jews than those of the Islamic faith. History proves that to be the case. But, that was not my point.
My point was that any and all of these belief systems have not acheived what they set out to do, as foundational belief systems. They just did not (do not)  work in the context of their (our) "milieu".
     Religion has, indeed, failed us....and it's historical "next, greatest, best" movement, that is known as science has also done the same.
      Science, from the "Age of Enlightenment" on was transformed from the blend of mysticism and science to pure empirical science, but the empiricism also went awry. We grew to an age where people "feared" science, and that is very prevalent today. We fear stem cell research, we fear cloning, we fear genetic manipulation.
     Should we? I dunno!
     But, based on historical evidence, perhaps we should. As, it seems, that all major advances in science have had "unexpected consequences". The pure efficiency and economy that the Nazis were able to exterminate unto oblivion 6 million people is a tribute to science and industry, but abhorrent to humankind. What is really ironic, is that they did it in the name of a religion which was a non-religion, an anti-religion, but nontheless, of a mystical nature. Oh yes, I know that that will rattle a lot of cages, and many will get their hackles up, but that is proven historical fact, though most will not accept this.
     Science, since Einstein, gave us the promise of an unlimited source of power, negating our need for fossil fuel. Yet, it's first application was a product of devastating destruction. The USA was the first, and only, country to use it as an offensive weapon. When the devastation was known, in all it's ramifications, we had a "New Age" of movies, literature, political thought and public discourse....the Saucer movies of an alien civilization coming to Earth to save the universe from destruction comes to mind, "Klaatu barada nikto" if you know what I mean...and I bet DocJ knows that!
      My point is that two major things have FAILED us in the times that they reign. Religion has not been unseated, as a matter of fact it has become even stronger, as fundamentalism, of any variety, it  is even stronger in the 20th and going into the 21st century than ever before. You have to remember and understand that early religions, even with the names I have given them, were, indeed, MYSTICAL! I will not back down from that argument. Fundamentalism is a 20th century contrivance.
Why?
Because, the promise of science has also failed us....and the gut reaction is to turn back to that in which we feel the most comfort. Science was, at one time, dedicated to make us feel more at ease, to alleviate discomfort, and to advance the ideals and existence of life. It, however, now frightens us, as if we have unleashed an "out of control" beast that might prey upon us. Is that far from the truth?
Sprite-fun, go back to your Mary Shelly, a young woman who wrote a book that was most out of character for the time, revolutionary, and quite uncanny....The Modern Prometheus, aka Frankenstein. What a remarkable woman!!!!!!!! True, Galvani had twichted frogs legs with the application of electricity, and the "cabinets of curiosities" floated around Europe......but she wrote of the creation of life from that which is inanimate, and that which has had past life, and that there would be a manifestation of the past into the present. And, look at the moral message of the book, as the monster was truly not the villian.
     As the quantum school of physics starts to unveil the true mysteries of science, it becomes even more frightening than before. Simply because quantum hypotheses challenge traditional, historical, views of all we believe, no matter what we believe, YET, it explains why we believe the way we do.    
It is only now, that we start to see, with fresh eyes, the blending of science, religion, and spirituality. BUT, it is not new at all!
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet..hat's off to Willie Shakespeare who said it better than I could ever say it!
With Peace and Love,
Marty and Sleepy Cats, Luck, Pop and Siss
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Spiritualfun
Posted 1/16/2008 1:52 AM (#3473 - in reply to #3472)
Subject: RE: Free Will


Thanks for the clarifications, Martin, I concur to most of what you are saying.

What we fear isn't the technologies though, is it? Isn't it our sound distrust in humanity that is the problem?

Of course, as a person from a part of the world in which hand guns are heavily regulated I somehow contradict myself there, as the number of people killed by shootings consequently hardly doesn't exist around here (but murders as such are low too). On the other hand, liberal access to certain technologies show many humans aren't human enough to handle them..... when the fear kicks in and the urge to protect oneself grows too strong - but it goes for financial power plays as well as arms, doesn't it? But such fear isn't new - we have never been so free in thought than what we are now, but have never been shown so much negative info from around the world either.

Despite the fact that we know that smoking can cause lung cancer, do you know how many percent of the total number of smokers and recent ones that get it? It's LESS than one percent! In combination with asbesthose it's an almost 100 percent hit rate though.

How many people have died from the bird flu, and from the mad cow disease or terrorism? Around 150 for the two first and less than 10.000 from terrorist attacks worldwide since WWII... IN TOTAL. How many die from drowning and how many kids die from starvation in the world? 300.000 people drown ANNUALLY, and 30.000 kids starve to death....PER DAY.

If looking into what is done to protect ourselves our priorities are pretty screwed up, one must say. Can one even imagine how much energy has been spent in vain for us to stay safe, and what strange effect such 'safety fascism' has caused - the latest being the 'anti-co2-fascism' that is cascading over the world? (the three main green house GASES are to > 98 % water vapor, < 1 % co2 and < 1 % methane. Of that single not even 1 % co2, less than 1 % is man made giving our impact to become a 'staggering' 1:10.000 of the total. The particles from our smoke stacks and open fire places aren't even accounted for, and they certainly has a huge impact too - while it is shown that added co2 to the nature gives a direct production increase with up to 200 percent depending on crop or forest types, with an increased output of oxygen in the process...of course).

Your point on the fear involved in modern science is both valid and highly interesting I think. I have for many years, long before my metaphysical experiences started, have had a hunch that there is a serious flaw in the academic principles we abide to. People within that system are so afraid of loosing face that it not only affect their own ability of thinking outside of the box, but also the ability for generations to come if they are just influential enough in their own field of expertise.

Your note on a shift in attitudes is also most accurate I believe. I dare to talk about healing and metaphysical phenomenas with my peers and friends, just for starters. I believe it started in the late '60s though, with the environmental movement which must be the biggest and fastest attitude shift in world history. The general idea that our local environment is important for us is though an easy sell as absolute most can 'sense' the truth in such a message, and I believe that the environmental awareness has spilled over into the metaphysical awareness too - just as everyone take it for granted that they can sense specific atmospheres when entering a room with other people, or having experienced that someone they have just been thinking of suddenly is on the phone.

A question on a more personal level though. How come that you don't honor peoples choice of an alias, by consequently making up own alternatives for them when addressing them? There are numerous reasons for people to not use their own name. From fear of becoming stalked, to risk a position or as in my case, as a test. No one in here can from my posts with certainty know from what part of the world I am, not know what my cultural background is and even not know of what gender I am - any attempt to classify who Spiritualfun 'is' would from my posts be plain guess work, and I want to see if that makes a difference, for myself when articulating my thoughts, as well as potentially in the reactions from the rest of you in here (from what I am used to when not being so cryptic about myself).

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Supernatural3
Posted 1/16/2008 9:04 AM (#3474 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Both have very valid comments. I think it's "organized" religion that has failed. But it has brought about a choice to be spiritual non-religious, due to the corrupt parts of it all. I do feel we are in Age of Aquarius.

I do have problems when it comes to some religious type of teaching.... like the Quran.
Muslims call America "The Great Satan". Muslim males are instructed to marry four Women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34). Their religion teaches that of one thing... Their way, or highway. They put bombs in children, and any of them are willing to die while killing as many Americans as they can, from their Quran Teachings (programming). How in the heck can this be good teaching? I know I am talking about the terrorist portion and I would hope not all feel this way. I really feel for many who are stuck in that kind of environment and would hope it's much different than that which is exposed to us.

I had a client who was Muslim last week. She was going through trouble in her marriage. She said their belief system (Quran) is the original and remains unchanged. She stated that all others have been changed and is no longer correct (meaning ours). Even their marriage vows, the woman has to agree to all kinds of things, as well as to be be obedient while the man says very little, the male side is so cold (Look it up). The man is the only one who can get a divorce by just saying the word "divorce" three times and that is it. They are divorced by Muslim law. If they live in the US, they have to go through our court system still and I don't know how that works. But, it's the Man that thinks he is far superior in the Muslim religion. I just do not understand a religion that treats their women like cattle. But, It shows in the Wedding Vows. It shows in the manorisms, It also shows their judgment against Americans (Christians and Jews).

I did not treat my client with disrespect, or any different than any other client, but i did feel very sorry for her. I feel sorry for any person brain washed into anything that limits the true self. I do not hate the Muslims, I think they are very closed minded and stuck in a world that existed thousands of years ago, but will not adapt.

As far as no guns in Australia. Wow... it's harsh alright. I have a best friend of mine who moved to Australia to get married. She and Her new husband were going to move back to America to live, but because he had a pellet gun, they took it and slapped him with a felon charge. He only had it for a week and was getting ready to register it, but had gotten married, which threw off his schedule. Anyway, now he is having a heck of a time trying to get a passport. He cannot come to America now, due to that problem with a pellet gun. I think that is a little strict. I personally have several pellet guns, as well as other regular guns. I don't feel it's the gun that kills, it's the untrained / uneducated man that pulls the trigger. But that is my own opinion, at which i can understand that putting a gun in the hands of the wrong person would spell catastrophe, so i am torn both ways. I just think it's a little overkill. But other than that, I would love to go to Australia some day. It's beautiful there and the people are so nice. We do have a lot of crime here in the US. Thankfully it's not much in my own area. However, my sisters best friend and her husband was walking out of a restaurant a month ago, and got shot. Some idiot was shooting at random people and her hubby was shot right in the calf. He said he didn't even know he was hit until a couple minutes later. They have nicknamed him "Fiddy" now. Like the rap singer that got shot that goes by "50 cent".... LOL, anyway... he has fully recovered and was lucky. But crime strikes us everywhere. SHAME- I call it ignorance.

Thank God we have come into a spiritual time. It's needed for sure~





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Omjah
Posted 1/16/2008 4:47 PM (#3475 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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One belief that I have considered is that there really are no individuals at all. If there is reincarnation, there is no unbroken line of individuality, but simply a conglomeration of possibility and potentiality. It is one Self having many experiences in the universe of time and matter. We are simply projections of the one Self putting on a play. Our sense of individuality is part of the fun of it all, forgetting thoroughly who we really are. When I meditate on this I tend to transcend most states of joy and melt into the unity of all that is. What this may mean for living in this world of illusion is an extension of compassion to everything and every one, a recognition of the interrelationship of everything, an end to anxiety and fear and isolation. or pure utter detachment and amorality! Will is only a factor in this reality as part of the drama and excitement of living as an intelligent social being.

Edited by Omjah 1/16/2008 4:49 PM
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Omjah
Posted 1/16/2008 8:03 PM (#3478 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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This Silence is not heartless,
This kind of despair is sublime.
Now of what earthly good am I?

Om
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Omjah
Posted 1/16/2008 8:08 PM (#3479 - in reply to #3270)
Subject: RE: Free Will


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I am a fool in your eyes
With a far away look
While you give attention to your 'here.'

Om

Edited by Omjah 1/16/2008 8:10 PM
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mruppert
Posted 1/19/2008 3:13 AM (#3492 - in reply to #3474)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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Chill Jill, or Chilly Jilly.....much of what you say is true. But, Islam is not the only religion or belief system that has mistreated or mistreats women. Historically, most do!
As you well know ( at least I think you do ); the movement to accord women the dignity of personhood is relatively recent. I can't really find anything before the early 1800's that indicates otherwise, in our modern day scenario.
What is of value for observation, is that the role of women has changed and changed rapidly by historical standards.
Let me ask you about some current cultural perceptions:
      1) Young and skinny is somehow beautiful!
     And, let me stop right here to await your ideas as to the "why".
     But, let me just say that this perception was not held, oh say, even 50 years ago. To be skinny was thought to be sickly. To be young was thought to be a period of innocence, with little bearing or interaction in an 'adult" world.
     Whaddya think, Doc? What caused this change in perception?

Peace n' luv,
Marty, Luckylee, Poppyhead and Sissygirl
 
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Supernatural3
Posted 1/19/2008 10:18 AM (#3495 - in reply to #3492)
Subject: RE: Free Will



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mruppert - 2008-01-19 3:13 AM

Chill Jill, or Chilly Jilly.....much of what you say is true. But, Islam is not the only religion or belief system that has mistreated or mistreats women.


LOL, True.... but adaption and common sense, is what happened to most as far as how people should be treated at least here in the states. I feel the reason many think it's healthier to be skinny, is due to all the health problems and significants that comes with being bigger. AND -> Media has a big part in everything. All the TV's show is models for everything. They don't show bigger women much on TV. It's rare. When there wasn't mush media, we didn't have as much depression.... (or we didn't know about it). Now we hear about everything. There is no such thing as privacy, should something happen out of the ordinary.

Times are good, yet i feel they are less simple, and chaotic. However, more open minded than ever before. Our world is dynamic not static.... It has to be, because we are.

My school studies right now are all about "The developing person". I haven't learned much yet... because they are trying to cram way too much info in my brain, and it's now on overload. Which means technically, i am now in hypnosis.... I wish someone would read to me out load..... man.... that would work at this point. Distance education can be hard with no instructors to help. I have NO idea what the exam will be on, out of four chapters. It would be nice to have a review for the exam. But there isn't one. Exam is tomorrow, deadline. EEEEK

I guess i "pick on" the Islamic religion, because they choose not to adapt. There for they are attempting to remain static, and it's against everything Earth life is about. Adaption and change is clearly needed in order to not be dysfunctional.

Blessings~




Edited by Supernatural3 1/19/2008 10:21 AM
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