Posted 12/28/2006 5:52 PM (#1289) Subject: light and sound machines
I wish to gain and exchange information on light and sound machines, Ganzfield, binaural beats, and entrainment for the purpose of Meditation, deepening meditative states, and the possibility of actualy tuning a group's brainwaves to the same frequency. These states among others are claimed by makers and users of light and sound devices by these methods. Does anyone have experience with these devices? Through this post and discussion I and others perhaps can learn about the technology. Any input would be helpful!
Posted 1/5/2007 7:14 PM (#1323 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
From our course on metaphsical technolgoies, with more to come later:
Experimentation and published research on the altering of brain activity has been going on for decades. A vast amount of applicable data has been collected by researchers and scientists concerning the manipulation and influencing of brain waves and states of consciousness. One effect discovered by German scientists in the 1930’s is called the Ganzfield effect. It is an effect in which the eyes are exposed to a totally uniform visual field, with no edges, color changes, or movement. This effect can be achieved by looking up at the sky on a clear, cloudless day, or with very specially constructed illuminated glasses. It affects the circuitry in the brain, which normally is constantly scanning the visual field for edges and movement. The eye responds primarily to changes, and with visual sensations shut off and the brain finding absolutely nothing, the subject cannot tell if his eyes are open or closed. This is an example of an altered state of consciousness resulting from the shift in brain waves to the Theta state.
Posted 1/6/2007 10:59 PM (#1327 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I am looking forward to geting to those classes. I hope to learn a great deal.
Posted 1/10/2007 6:56 PM (#1340 - in reply to #1327) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Here is the basics of what the machines are about:
One purpose of such technology is to create a relaxed state through the use of sound and light stimulation. It was discovered in the 1930’s that repetitive light stimulation (strobing) caused brain waves to follow and pulse at the same frequency. This discovery had profound implications for the human condition, giving rise to an entire industry that explores the possibilities in using outside stimulation to provide a functioning aide to the workings of the brain. The devices on the market today are set at predetermined frequencies of 1 to 40 Hertz per second. The user is then free to experiment on just how these vibrational frequencies influence their affect on the mind’s eye. Most users report patterns of colors that pulse in synch with the frequency of the beats. The patterns are often quite psychedelic and geometrical.
Light and sound machines are often used for meditation assistance, or to aid the learning process. The technologies are referred to as audio?visual stimulation systems, light and sound machines, or mind machines. Varying patterns of light and sound are used to create different states of awareness, attention, relaxation, creativity, and receptivity to information. Most systems are controlled by a microprocessor. The sound and music sometimes comes on a CD, with the frequency patterns embedded in the music.
Posted 1/18/2007 8:47 PM (#1395 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I should admit I expected more responses on this thread. Perhaps this is because few people have had experience with them. My own experience is limited but was quite striking. After puting on glasses and headphones I was greeted with a flashing light that immediatly became a beautiful sun on the horizon. After a few seconds the machine was shut off and when started back up with the same initial program I saw the exact same picture! It wasn't a matter of being similar it was the same. although my experience is limited this makes me believe that with these devices one can re-experience meditative phenomena. Perhaps taking different perspective in viewing them. While they seem like cheating and I would not want to do all meditation with one, they may provide insight not atained with other methods.
Posted 1/22/2007 6:43 PM (#1417 - in reply to #1395) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Cheating? I don't think so - much like using a sewing machine instead of needle and thread is cheating. The seam still holds, so there, huh?
Meanwhile, here is some research about a machine that enables lucid dreaming:
Another device in the category of metaphysical technology facilitates lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is being aware of the fact that you are dreaming while you are doing so. This allows the dreamer to gain insight into the purpose and symbolic meanings behind the dream, thus facilitating their analysis and the ensuing psychological healing process.
The technology for this process was developed by Stephen LaBerge, Ph.D., during twenty years of research at Stanford University. Dr. LaBerge developed a device called the NovaDreamer, a mask-like device that detects the time that one is in REM sleep, the state of rapid eye movement that one experiences when dreaming. The device gives cues, such as flashing lights or specific sounds, that remind one to realize the state of dreaming. In other words, one “wakes up” while still in the dream. The purpose is to give the dreamer detachment from the dreaming process during the course of the dream. This provides the impetus for the analytical process of dream interpretation to take place during the course of the dream. Users have reported that having lucid dreams have allowed them to make spontaneous choices that enable them to learn from, and even guide, the dream to constructive ends. Anecdotal evidence of these choices includes suddenly deciding to fly away from situations, empowering the dreamer to feel safer and have more free choice. There are also reports of incidents of making an old friend appear and talking to that person about consequential matters or resolving conflicts. Dreamers report being able to feel textures, hear sounds and smell odors in the dreamscape. The users reported that these sensations were as real as any in the physical world, and they were able to make conscious decisions and choices.
The entire process of lucid dreaming gives the spiritual sojourner tools and techniques, developed deep within the psyche, to explore and use their dreams for self-discovery, creativity, fantasy fulfillment, emotional healing, and profound spiritual insights. In other words, lucid dreaming is like having your own virtual reality machine already built in! All you have to do is learn how to access it.
Posted 1/23/2007 12:28 AM (#1420 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I have read and enjoyed Lebarge's book. This addresses my present thought that when I created this thread I should possibly have made it under a diferent title. Perhaps "Metaphysical technology" would be apropriate.
Posted 2/13/2007 7:48 PM (#1515 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I assume that sendep means sensory deprevation and I have heard about the expiriments. Although, I haven't read much about them. The diference seems to be the repeatability and directability of the experience. The sensory deprevation expiriments result in images through lack of stimulus, while entrainment results in images through stimulus i.e, through light and sound. The user of such a device can choose what sort of brainwave he/she would like to entrain to, alpha, beta, delta, theta, etc. Your question is valid. I, myself question the necessity of such a device. but, I do think the technology deserves study. As, the states of mind incountered have value. The claim is, people can reach profound meditative states though these light and sound machines. I worry people will not meditate as ably without the machine than with if they have no experience in methods of meditation(this is certenly true). however, the user might find out what states are available to them, and thus find method later if they find the state desireable. As was observed by steelie the method may actualy mean less than result.
Posted 4/6/2007 10:19 PM (#1648 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I'm adding this post to try to renew interest, and to ask our new guests and students about their light and sound experiences. I also am thinking of buying one (a "procyon") and would like to know if someone could give advice on, or suggest a model to buy if this is the wrong one?
I also, in the field of metaphysical technology, am being introduced to the use of "Rife" tech' soon. I will tell all of you how it goes.
Posted 4/6/2007 10:57 PM (#1649 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
(I did not see your post in February) You guessed right, sensory deprivation, but sometimes enhanced by some things that will be left unsaid. As I write this I am listening to what some call "ambient" music. What I find fascinating, is that certain "songs" can have a very powerful effect.
And, fortunately for me, one such song is beginning and I know it very well, and therefore must leave you before I say anymore. But, I would like to discuss this further.
Posted 4/13/2007 12:31 AM (#1694 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I too enjoy ambient music. And, I have a CD of resonant music intended to heal and entrain the mind to its basic brain wave patterns. I find them very relaxing. The entrainment c.d. has a second disk with the information on the entrainment itself. I am still unsure which machine I am going to procure. The Procyon is more modern than most machines, but the Nova Pro is supposed to be more solid and it may have a multi-user option that would allow for up to ten users, a tempting invitation to experiment entraining individuals together! I am interested in weather minds entrained together will share the same effects. The technology works. Of how well it works I am unsure. It would seem that if we are using light to effect the human body the most direct way would be the eye and, as like, the ear for sound. Many, more accomplished individuals would scoff at the Idea. But, I am a firm believer in the capacity for humans to create, radiate, and be affected by light and radiation in a conscious manner. Carbon 13 dating is a staple in the diet of science, and used as a proof of life. That we have the capacity to control this (and other) radiation is not entirely doubtful in my mind. How spiritual light and this more earthly science interact is a matter for the future.
I hope you will not condemn my fringe science
Posted 4/13/2007 11:56 AM (#1699 - in reply to #1694) Subject: Brain Wave CDs - was RE: light and sound machines
cause - 2007-04-13 12:31 AM
I too enjoy ambient music. And, I have a CD of resonant music intended to heal and entrain the mind to its basic brain wave patterns.
I have been experimenting with some CDs lately, and have been interested in them for many years. I have a sleep disorder that causes me to be very sleepy all day and still sleep all night. Due to this constant need to sleep, I have trouble focusing, concentrating, getting things done, etc. I theorized that if my brainwaves are close to sleep brainwaves, perhaps using these CDs might help me. I have several by Dr. Jeffrey Thompson that entrain the brain into Alpha waves, theoretically to help focus, concentrate, meditate, etc. I listen to them constantly while I am reading my coursework, and I really believe that it has made a difference. I don't necessarily feel different, but I am able to pay attention to the material and I do retain more of it. I find that my mind wanders less if I do my meditations after listening to one of the CDs for awhile. I have a different one that entrains to Delta waves, but I planned to use that one with my son who has trouble getting to sleep at night. The last thing I need is help getting to sleep. LOL!
Has anyone else worked with these CDs, or knows anything about sleep disorders and brain waves?
Posted 4/13/2007 8:45 PM (#1704 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Hi To Cause: The "fringe science" of yesterday is the science of today. The matters discussed on this site are among the ones where "Theory" is not applied by so called scientists. For those unfamiliar....a "Theory" is something which is generally accepted as true by indirect evidence, as opposed to empirical evidence. Hence, the Theory of Relativity; or the Theory of Evolution. When something is still in question or doubt, it is a hypotheses. Indirect evidence indicates quite clearly that many of the things that people (coming together via this site) believe are quite true; and many things that I believe, in common with others here, are true. Yet, you and I and others are scoffed at by science, since we can't "prove it."
Beyond that, even theories can be shaken to their core. The best example is how discoveries in quantum physics shook the Theory of Relativity, causing Einstein to write the "Special Theory of Relativity" which merely "guessed" at the nature of gravity. Our science is flimsy and manipulative.
By preponderance of indirect evidence, I have as much proof that ghosts exist, that crystals heal, that "life" exists after the mortal body ceases to function, as any so called scientist has of what he or she believes to be manifestly true, by virtue of equations. Yet, the answer always is
"well, if ghosts exist, then let me see one...." The Universe does not work like that!
Oh, please excuse me, I climbed atop a soapbox and am ranting. Enough said!
Posted 6/10/2007 6:43 PM (#2003 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I have spent the money, and bought a "Procyon." I found limited information on these machines, but I believe I have bought a good example of the technology, and for my purpose, the best product. I am expectant of the machine's arrival and will share my experiences.
Posted 6/13/2007 9:47 PM (#2024 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I, for one, am looking forward to what you find! I love it when technology does as promised, because most of the time, it does not. And, even moreso, there are always "unexpected consequences".
Stay in touch!!!
Posted 6/15/2007 3:28 PM (#2040 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I am considering starting a web-page for the edification of the potential users of L & S machines. There is very little information out there on the web and what is out there is hard to find and sometimes biased. Even if I only created a page of links that might be an improvement. I will let you know of my experiences.
Posted 6/15/2007 10:40 PM (#2041 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Yes...if you have the resources, please do a page. I am getting really interested in this. I experimented with alpha, beta and theta tapes for a "controlled" experience (as opposed to the sensory deprivation things we used to do) way back when, but they didn't work, at least not the way that I expected. We had no "surround sound" in those days, so one would subconsciously focus on sound source. Headphones didn't help much, but at least took the focal point from directed to floating. Enough of the old days.......
One comment made in a prior post, the gist of which was can a similar or identical experience be shared among two (or more?) people. I recall that Dr. Rene Levi's work (at Saybrook Institute) in the realm of cosmic resonance touches on this, although tangentially. She found that it is most likely that it would be shared. So, it is time to put this to the test.
Posted 6/17/2007 9:31 PM (#2050 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I have done some of my own surfing and would like to know why you chose the Procyon?
I purposely did not chart out comparision data as I thought you have all ready done this. What was the defining thing that made you choose? What am I missing between the various devices?
Also, and of some side interest, what is the effect on someone who is epileptic?
Posted 6/19/2007 10:18 PM (#2059 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
The deciding factor was the addition, in the procyon, of color.
And, all epileptics should NOT use any sort of flickering light technology. Flickering light can bring on a seizure in a person with any sort of epilepsy.
My procyon arrived yesterday (yay!) and is so far a positive experience. I will be interested in the possible therapeutic possibilities and am going to a short seminar on integrating the whole brain. The mediative aspect is also quite profound although I would recommend the technology for journeying and visualization, and not a replacement for meditation.
Posted 6/19/2007 11:04 PM (#2061 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
You studied this, so know more than I. Epileptics drive cars and must approach flashers, whether yellows or reds....I am wondering if there is something to do with frequencies? You said flickering......do you mean random pulsations? I have no knowledge of what triggers mal or gran mal seizures.
I ask this for another reason, and I shall try to explain this using language within language. Sensory deprivation studies advanced to the point where hallucinogens, primarlily LSD, were introduced into the equation. The "cosmic" experiences which resulted only lead to the introduction of very powerful psychotropic substances (far more potent than little college LSD tabs) to try to further the experience.
Much knowledge was gathered concerning brain wave patterns during so termed "mystical" experiences, most of which was used to found the science of MRI of the brain, which is relatively young, I would say about ten to fifteen years old, from inception.
An unexpected and unanticipated consequence for those who participated early on, and also those casual users, was that there would be triggers that caused what was termed "flashbacks", in other words, the same experience, but with no initiation via introduced
I am wondering what effect these machines have on such people?
Posted 6/21/2007 6:38 PM (#2074 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
To answer your first question; people with epilepsy can sometimes be thrown into a seizure by rapidly flashing light,t like L&S machines, but also the sun through the trees while in a car, or a light show at a concert, or other such rapidly flashing light.
I am not sure how to respond to your second question. I have never looked into studies of people using LSD with sensory deprivation, although I know they exist and where widely read. If you are, understandably, thinking these are over-glorified light shows you may be surprised. The response on a person not under the influence of drugs can be intense. Where and how these types of stimulus will effect medicine remain to be seen. They may not come to full fruition as therapy any time soon but imagine pain or panic or delusional thought being treated with, instead of highly addictive or hazardous drugs a less invasive, less addictive, light therapy. If the technology is found to be as influencing to the mind as is thought by some we may see thought about light therapy to be changed dramatically.
There are however many types of light/radionic therapies out there and this thread is about only one of them. I hope as our understanding of light and radiation is improved we can come to a better utilization of them in medicine. Part of My belief is that we should help make everyone around us healthy. My interest in physics means that I look to physics for part of the answer to that desire/requirement. As much as some people are going to disagree or be in conflict about this: there are many many types of radiant particles out there and I would be surprised if none are found that are not useful. And, I hope our understanding of them improves and is not ignored.
Posted 7/22/2007 2:12 AM (#2337 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
In exploring light and sound devices I have found that there is, as I suspected, a change in the sense of discipline. When you don't have to work to achieve meditative states the tendency is not to meditate as regularly, this leads to being less involved in such states. The solution is (of course) to meditate as well in addition to using the machine. The result? I spend more time meditating than I have in the past, around one and one half hours per day, Sometimes more. The drawbacks are that the experience is, at best, reclusive, and may be a source of eye strain (sort of like spending some time in front of a computer screen.) The good part is that I have found through this machine an insight into meditation! One that many of you may have already experienced, that you needn't strain to achieve meditation. A still mind can be achieved without force.
To any one who doubts the ability of such a machine to effect the mind, take note. The effects of this machine can be quite strong! Including in addition to possible mandala like imagery, a sense of motion, and vertigo. I also sometimes after an energizing session feel intensely alert and talkative. These are not toys. And, I hope they will be used appropriately.
Posted 7/22/2007 2:45 AM (#2338 - in reply to #2337) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Hi Cause.....sorry I can't type longer explanations as to why I ask these questions, but anyway, here they go: 1) Did you feel any "addictive" propensity towards the glasses? 2) Did you feel any sense of barriers when reverting to 'regular' meditiation routine? 3) Would you conclude that this experience is just a simple enhancement in meditation, or might there be a breakthrough, to new ground?
Posted 7/23/2007 3:44 AM (#2362 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Hi all....I have great interest in sound healing -- both scientific and sacred -- and have done alot of research over the past year since my son was helped tremendously with Tomatis therapy (mozart music and Gregorian chant through headphones with certain frequencies boosted to stimulate the brain....www.tomatis.com).
Anyways, one Dr in particular whose research and work is amazing is Dr Jeffrey Thompson out of the Centre for Neuroacoustic Research out of Southern California. There are great, informative articles on his website at http://www.neuroacoustic.com. I encourage you to check out his site or google his name!
Posted 7/23/2007 5:38 PM (#2366 - in reply to #2338) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
My feelings about your questions are as follows,
1) Yes, I feel there is a potential for abuse and I can see how a person could be caught up in the use of L&S devices. But, there is, I'm sure, no physical dependancy, and in my mind this technology should be explored for its possible therapeutic uses.
2)The barrier to regular meditation that I felt was finding time to do both. I was worried about serious distraction before I bought the device. But, If anything my meditations have gotten more interesting and possibly more valuable (although this remains to be seen). I'm not sure how to finalize this answer except by reiterating that I have found new meditative states that were unknown to me before.
3)The idea that this is entirely new is not entirely true! The Indian Raga's where written with the thought that their resonances would directly effect the body of the listener! The "new" part of this technology is the modification of light, including the ganzfeld effect and flicker. I'm not sure if this is a breakthrough, but it is a fascinating idea that a modification of light could make you more psychically receptive.
Posted 7/23/2007 10:38 PM (#2369 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Hi Dee: Thanks so much for the link......I feel it adds dimension to the discussion. I use Gregorian Chant in many different ways. If you filter it, you see basic wave patterns that are in keeping with modern day recordings specifically designed to target "states' of mind. How could the composers know this a thousand years ago? I am not that convinced about Mozart, though. Yes, I know his story, but I am not sure about the music. Please, join in again, and I would love to "hear" about your Amadeus experience! Peace Profound, Marty
Posted 7/23/2007 10:58 PM (#2370 - in reply to #2366) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Hi Cause: #3 gives me much to think about! My understanding of the Ragas will always be colored by the time that I was introduced to them; a time of peace, love and war. I remember Ravi explaining what he was about to play, but we really weren't listening to the explanation, as most were all ready in a sound trip of each's own making. I do remember that there was an epic story, and that the music lasted forever, and that we heard the music long after he had left the stage. Thanks, Cause, as you have opened my eyes to some beautiful memories and/or illusions. Best to you, Marty
Posted 7/31/2007 10:24 PM (#2448 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Hi Cause: Anymore feedback on the use of the glasses? The battle of brakes for the car vs. Procyon resulted in brakes winning. No glasses until tax return time! Oh, and I wanted to ask you just out of curiosity, did you ever see a flic called "They Live"....it was a John Carpenter movie, with a WWF wrestler named "Rowdy Roddy Piper" in the lead role. I think there are several things that most people miss....the primary one being that when he puts the glasses on, the sound changes....Carpenter makes it obvious about one third through the movie when you distinctly hear "sleep....sleep...sleep.... as a background to a b/w view of what Piper is looking at.The Inet ambient radio station "Sleepbot" uses this as their tagline when entering their stream. best wishes to you, Marty
Posted 8/21/2007 9:35 PM (#2531 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
I've never seen that particular movie. And, strangely cannot find "sleepbot" in my ambient radio section on itunes. :(
Your post did however remind me of the iradio, and I have it on "realms of spirit" ambient now. Beautiful languages and singing! :)
I am now working on a way to transfer the programing function software from this mac to my old IBM which is the required system. The IBM has no ethernet! I'm sure I'll work it out.
I appologize for the lateness of my reply I was taking what I consider to be a summer break. I'm now behind on many threads. I am enjoying the machine and feel that there is alot of potential in it. I am interested in what other L&S machines are like. I am just starting to explore the journeying I intended and 'am taking it slow. I'll have to get back to you on some of the info.
Posted 9/14/2007 6:02 PM (#2584 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
In working with the L&S machine I found that I may have chosen a product that is different than most of the other products out there. The Procyon is a color L&S machine and as such is an improvement in the modification of mood though color. However the other L&S machines on the market use glasses with the LED's on the periphery of the vision of the wearer and because of this the eye is effected differently, comparable to peripheral drift illusion. We are using light to change consciousness and as such should consider the effect this illusion has on the wearer. I believe it to be strong!
The bottom line is that I have little knowledge about other systems, and am unsure I wasn't to spend the money on another new system. If someone has another system I would like to receive there input.
Posted 9/16/2007 2:27 AM (#2590 - in reply to #1289) Subject: RE: light and sound machines
Sleepbot, Cryosleep and BlueMars are on Shoutcast....though BlueMars is only availabe some days, I guess they are running out of money. I also found a Polish stream....Mixture of Particulate Solids....that is pretty bizarre, in that they mix cetain classical compositions with ambient and new age. They played Henryk Gorecki's "Symphony of Sad Songs" which was a trip in itself. Marty